Vatican II

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 22 2005, 08:21 PM']SO have I. and that is why the SSPX is so seductive in their position.
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i was once tempted to become a schismatic, trust me. I just kept praying to be delivered from the temptation. There are a lot of great orthodox parishes that dont misenterpret VII. Im greatful and thankful I belong to one,

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Akalyte' date='Dec 22 2005, 09:24 PM']i was once tempted to become a schismatic, trust me. I just kept praying to be delivered from the temptation. There are a lot of great orthodox parishes that dont misenterpret VII. Im greatful and thankful I belong to one,
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btw is this MC Just?

[Dave]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 22 2005, 10:00 PM']btw is this MC Just?
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Yes, that's him. I told him he should've just asked Dust to change his user name from MC Just to Akalyte, but MC Just still exists.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Dave' date='Dec 23 2005, 12:06 AM']Yes, that's him.  I told him he should've just asked Dust to change his user name from MC Just to Akalyte, but MC Just still exists.
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thanks Dave.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Ecumenicism: What does it call for?

does it always mean that we have to pray in synagouges etc? because frankly thats ridicoulous and It would never have been allowed before.

[thessalonian]

Wow Q. That's an enlightening article, especially considering the timeframe it was written.

", Christendom includes not merely the Catholic Church, but, together with it, the many other religious communions which have either directly or indirectly, separated from it, and yet, although in conflict both with it and among themselves as to various points of doctrine and practice agree with it in this: that they look up to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Founder of their Faith, and claim to make His teaching the rule of their lives. As these separated communities when massed together, indeed in some cases even of themselves, count a vast number of souls, among whom many are conspicuous for their religious earnestness, this extension of the term Christendom to include them all has its solid justification. "

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 23 2005, 07:47 AM']Ecumenicism: What does it call for?

does it always mean that we have to pray in synagouges etc? because frankly thats ridicoulous and It would never have been allowed before.
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Ummm. You might want to look through the book of Acts. Paul and others were often found preaching in synagoges. I have little doudt he might have said a prayer or two there as well. It was not that the early Catholics rejected worship in synagoges. It was that they were thrown out by the Jews. Are there places that we go in our lives that we should not pray?

Edited December 23, 2005 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 23 2005, 07:47 AM']Ecumenicism: What does it call for?

does it always mean that we have to pray in synagouges etc? because frankly thats ridicoulous and It would never have been allowed before.
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Let me also say that dialogue with non-christians is not called ecumenism but religous dialogue. As for your second point, the internet is a wonderful tool:

[url="http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a014.html"]http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a014.html[/url]



Fourteen years after the liberation of Rome by the Allies, an officer of the Jewish Brigade was quoted in Davar, the Hebrew daily of Israel's Federation of Labor: "When we entered Rome, the Jewish survivors told us with a voice filled with deep gratitude and respect: If we have been rescued; if Jews are still alive in Rome come with us and thank the Pope in the Vatican. For in the Vatican proper, in churches, monasteries and private homes, Jews were kept hidden at his personal orders....[b] Even on the synagogue near the Tiber he had his papal seal imprinted[/b], and that was respected even by the Nazis."


I think your vision of history is clouded.

[phatcatholic]

sam,

it looks like no one posted anything on the hierarchy of truths, so i thought i'd hook u up:

[b]--[url="http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/dbushman_hiertruths_sept05.asp"]Understanding the Hierarchy of Truths[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/HIERARCH.TXT"]The Hierarchy of Truths and the Truth[/url]
--[url="http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/4levels.htm"]Hierarchy of Truths and Four Levels of Teaching[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/4LEVELS.TXT"]Four Levels of the Church's Teaching[/url]
--[url="http://www.adoremus.org/0902AuthorityChurchDoc.html"]The Authority of Church Documents[/url][/b]

also, there's an entry in the directory on Ultratraditionalism that will be of great help to you. it has subtopics that address all the questions you have raised in this thread. please check it out!!!

Ultratraditionalism
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/41"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/41[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 22 2005, 12:35 PM']ok here is how i feel:
I think the Vatican II documents were ambigious.
i think it led to teaching today that is bad.
But the SSPX is in schism, i want nothing to do with them.
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If somebody wants to twist the meaning of words to their own end, they will do so, no matter how carefully you word a document. If someone is choosing to make themselves a magisterium of one they will do so .

Vatican II was pastoral AND dogmatic, stating and restating infallable church teachings. It is not either - or, its both. It was ecumenical - remember the whole church was there

Do you condemn the US Constitution or the Declaration of Independence because people have used it to condone error or sin?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Even if i agree/or disagree with the Vatican II
its not my call. i have to stay subordinate to the magisterium.

[son_of_angels]

One has, to look at the opposite viewpoint, to also consider the peril of unfaithful/ineffective popes and councils. Consider Pope John XII for example, with a brothel in the Vatican. Surely Jesus tells us "obey them for they sit on Moses' seat, but do not do as they do." We have the right to judge actions that are patently false/dangerous/stupid. Even Paul fraternally corrected Peter for ambiguity.

I am not suggesting anything in particular against Vatican II. I attend a parish that has both a NO and an Indult community. Unlike most I drift from Mass to Mass, depending on time (though, due to choir duties, I go to the Indult on Sundays). I love the Novus Ordo (at times) and the Tridentine (at times).

But the liturgy is not the only concern I have. The ambiguity and lack of precedent for many of the ideas presented by the Council represent the first step of the Church towards a political correctness that, while applicable in the 60's, is no longer able to speak to the needs plaguing the church today. We certainly don't hold anymore to some ideals of Councils like that of Chalcedon or even Nicea, though they may have been good and pastoral and have left us treasures of infallible dogmas, are oftentimes inapplicable to modern situations.

The politics which stemmed from Vatican II (and the fifties through seventies in general) have led us to the hypocrisy and ambiguity which has left the American Church especially afloat. I have a friend for example, just confirmed at 19 last year, who confided to me that during his prayers he feels the utter desolation of a Church that, while claiming infallibility, leaves him to search for his spirituality alone, eschewing traditional devotions and replacing them with "national bishops conferences" and "social justice committees" and liturgies which lack fervor and solemnity, as well as the face-offs between orthodox laymen and a liberal episcopate.

One can say that these are simply abuses all one wants, but an abuse has to have something to abuse, something vulnerable to abuse. But, consider the new appointment to the San Francisco diocese. I did some research on the guy, considered a "moderate." While I certainly respect and obey the pope, who appoints a "moderate" like this guy, who certainly has a track record for liberal agendas, to a major diocese if one really wants to see legitimate reform? Pope Benedict is already showing the lack of stomach to make any significant changes in the organs of ecclesial power, which can be traced back to the "collegiality" encouraged by Vatican II. At least Pope JPII generally appointed "yes" men.

Hence, my point. While obedience is needed, fraternal correction is also needed, and at least something to anchor us after we were unmoored by Vatican II. We need direction, and Vatican II, because of the global politics of the time failed to give it. This has been our judgment on many popes, councils, and bishops in the past. Why not utilize it now?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

yeah national councils of bishops, seem to make a "Seond vicar of christ", and from what i understand they USCCB teaches bad theology, and are the ones responsible for putting almost every mass in the country in english. We need a strong Pope In Rome who gets rid of these councils.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 23 2005, 09:29 PM']yeah national councils of bishops, seem to make a "Seond vicar of christ", and from what i understand they USCCB teaches bad theology, and are the ones responsible for putting almost every mass in the country in english. We need a strong Pope In Rome who gets rid of these councils.
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From what I understand...the Church has long had a tradition of local councils and these are an important part of Chuch tradition.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

I decided i will not make up my mind about the council just yet, but I still want to talk about it. later i will post some things to discuss,

God Bless,

Sam

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

the Church of christ subsistes in the Catholic church. this is said " in "Lumen Gentium."
now would anyone agree that this is ambigiously written, and could be taken hijack by modernists?

Especially considering the church had to condemn the idea that the church of christ subsits in other ecclesiastical communities?

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 1 2006, 02:44 PM']the Church of christ subsistes in the Catholic church. this is said " in "Lumen Gentium."
now would anyone agree that this is ambigiously written, and could be taken hijack by modernists?

Especially considering the church had to condemn the idea that the church of christ subsits in other ecclesiastical communities?
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There is no lack of clarity unless you possess a very limited vocabulary. Even in the English lexicon the word 'subsist' means:

[quote]subsist from www.m-w.com
One entry found for subsist.


Main Entry: sub·sist
Pronunciation: s&b-'sist
Function: verb
Etymology: Late Latin subsistere to exist, from Latin, to come to a halt, remain, from sub- + sistere to come to a stand; akin to Latin stare to stand -- more at STAND
intransitive senses
1 a : to have existence : BE b : PERSIST, CONTINUE
2 : to have or acquire the necessities of life (as food and clothing); especially : to nourish oneself <subsisting on roots, berries and grubs>
3 a : to hold true b : to be logically conceivable as the subject of true statements
transitive senses : to support with provisions [/quote]

If you have any grasp of Thomistic philosophy where we're constantly speaking about subsistent being then you should grasp instantly that Lumen Gentium is saying clearly that the Church of God takes its existence and continues to exist in the Catholic Church. In Latin 'subsitere' is even stronger. If Catholics cannot be bothered to consult the English dictionary and/or learn the terminology of scholasticism is that the Church's fault?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

what about the modernsit who took advantage of the word?

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 1 2006, 04:29 PM']what about the modernsit who took advantage of the word?
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The Spirit of Vatican II is in the letter of Vatican II. The document says the Church of God exists in the Catholic Church and both the Latin and the English are clear about this. If people have taken advantage of other indivuals ignorance of the English language and the lexicon of Thomist philosophy that is not the Church's fault. If it takes two minutes at marriam-webster online to discover the meaning of subsist those who cannot be bothered to cross reference the definition of words like 'subsist' have only themselves to blame.

[son_of_angels]

Actions speak louder than words. If this phrase is to mean something as serious as the dictionaries imply, the only need to say it over and over again stems from a lack of evangelism, especially among Jews and Orthodox, to the people from the perspective that "We are the Church!" The problem stems from the poor behavior of the post-conciliar and immediately pre-conciliar Church to represent the core doctrines as essential guides to policy, such that the same doctrines held for two millenia must be repeated over and over again. The Council is not exempt, for it is the result and culmination of this "bad behavior." My heart says: "What one must repeat over and over again is repeated for the benefit of the repeater and not the listener."

But, what I wonder is this, why should a Council, none of whose documents qualify as infallible, be allowed so much an impact on Catholic life, while the prescriptions of Councils like Florence, Trent, Nicea, Chalcedon, Vatican I, etc. be ignored, or held in less value, when they are the very sources of our faith. To me its like memorizing the Rosary having never heard of the Bible, or singing hymns with no familiarity to the Psalms, or knowing the Brigittine prayers without knowing an Our Father and Hail Mary. What's the point? Not only that, aren't we looking to the wrong Council for inspiration. If it is "pastoral" why the publicity?