Pope Urges a Just World Order

[Paladin D]

[url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=82187"]Pope Urges a Just World Order, in Christmas Message[/url]

I can see a lot of "Left Behind" readers going nuts over this statement.

[son_of_angels]

Of course, it is our "technical achievements" which would make such a fraternal humanity possible. All the things, like movies, computers, etc. that do, I agree, to some extent dehumanize mankind, are they to be the building blocks for some "just" or "fraternal" world order?

Personally, I think the last four popes have been mistaken. People need to quit worrying about people who, to them, are simply numbers on a computer screen, and worry about the poor they meet everyday. Taxes, the United Nations, the World Bank, etc. do not equate to charity. I also think the undue focus on the "human family" undermines the concept that the Church, a family with a true inheritance and true kinship is reserved to those who, by the grace of God, believe and obey the New Covenant. What does it mean to promote "secular justice" (if such a thing exists) if we are not just to the faithful in our church? It is nothing but a display of hypocrisy for the sake of petty political goals.

And how are we most charitable? By teaching the Gospel, by admonishing each other, by casting off the confusion of the modern church (which exists because Churchmen have created idols of modernity, loving the creature more than the creator), and by learning to live where we are (our families, our communities, etc.) so that we may show true charity, and not just throw money and words at world problems.

[qfnol31]

I don't understand what could be upsetting about this?

[philothea]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 25 2005, 06:02 PM']I don't understand what could be upsetting about this?
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Because it sounds like vague feel-good political wishfulness, not something an individual will be challenged to act upon.

OTOH, I don't know the normal tone of these speeches. It's not the kind of thing I pay much attention to unless someone points it out.

[qfnol31]

I dunno if it's the Church's place to get that involved in politics.

[Colleen]

[quote name='philothea' date='Dec 25 2005, 07:06 PM']Because it sounds like vague feel-good political wishfulness, not something an individual will be challenged to act upon.

OTOH, I don't know the normal tone of these speeches.  It's not the kind of thing I pay much attention to unless someone points it out. 
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I thought it was interesting, especially when he spoke about Darfur. Pope Benedict is one of few leaders in the world speaking out about the genocide crisis in Sudan, so I thought it was cool.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

the church isn't here to make heaven on earth or to make life better for the people on earth it is here for the sanctification, and salvation of souls.

[qfnol31]

Do you mean by "Heaven on Earth" something to do with making this world perfect?

Technically that's the end of all things, but I think I know what you're saying. Just for clarification.

Otherwise, oui (edit: Seen in the proper context of course!)

Edited December 26, 2005 by qfnol31

[qfnol31]

son_of_angels, I didn't see that language. I probably need to read it more thoroughly.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 25 2005, 07:39 PM']Do you mean by "Heaven on Earth" something to do with making this world perfect?

Technically that's the end of all things, but I think I know what you're saying.  Just for clarification. 

Otherwise, oui (edit:  Seen in the proper context of course!)
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that what the priest said at mass yesterday afternoon

i think it means not making the world perfect or trying to improve peoples living conditions etc.

not to be to overly citrical of the Pope, but those comments scared me! Why doesn't he pray for the Salvation of African and the middle east, and not just to "improve living conditions" and create "a novus ordo seclorum"

Edited December 26, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Ash Wednesday]

Excuse the pope for caring about the poor, especially on Christmas.

What do people expect him to say? "Become a Catholic, or you're all going to hell. Merry Christmas, everyone!"

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Dec 25 2005, 08:44 PM']Excuse the pope for caring about the poor, especially on Christmas. 

What do people expect him to say? "Become a Catholic, or you're all going to hell. Merry Christmas, everyone!"
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I expect a more charitable version of that but yes.

[TheOliverOrder88]

Do you think the Pope (and all modern-day popes for that matter) are stuck between being a world leader/political leader and being a spiritual father for the Church?

I think he has some right to speak out for social justice and I'm guessing mentioning all he mentioned is necessary for being a "hopeful and optomistic" Christian.

But focusing just on the social justice aspects of a "building the kingdom of God" is watering everything down I think. Christian is more than the right to hold a union.

Give me substance!

[philothea]

[quote name='TheOliverOrder88' date='Dec 25 2005, 09:06 PM']Do you think the Pope (and all modern-day popes for that matter) are stuck between being a world leader/political leader and being a spiritual father for the Church?

I think he has some right to speak out for social justice and I'm guessing mentioning all he mentioned is necessary for being a "hopeful and optomistic" Christian.

But focusing just on the social justice aspects of a "building the kingdom of God" is watering everything down I think. Christian is more than the right to hold a union.

Give me substance!
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Agreed...

But, that was why I wanted to know what the Christmas speech usually entails. Maybe it's just a PR thing.

[Colleen]

[quote name='philothea' date='Dec 25 2005, 10:09 PM']Agreed...

But, that was why I wanted to know what the Christmas speech usually entails.  Maybe it's just a PR thing. 
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[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/urbi/index.htm"]These[/url] are all of John Paul II's [i]Urbi et Orbi [/i]speeches. Last year he mentioned:

[quote]Babe of Bethlehem, Prophet of peace,
encourage attempts to promote dialogue and reconciliation,
sustain the efforts to build peace,
which hesitantly, yet not without hope, are being made
to bring about a more tranquil present and future
for so many of our brothers and sisters in the world.
I think of Africa, of the tragedy of Darfur in Sudan,
of Côte d’Ivoire and of the Great Lakes Region.
With great apprehension I follow the situation in Iraq.
And how can I fail to look with anxious concern,
but also invincible confidence,
towards that Land of which you are a son?[/quote]

and the year before:

[quote]Save us from the great evils which rend humanity
in these first years of the third millennium.
Save us from the wars and armed conflicts
which lay waste whole areas of the world,
from the scourge of terrorism
and from the many forms of violence
which assail the weak and the vulnerable.
Save us from discouragement
as we face the paths to peace,
difficult paths indeed, yet possible and therefore necessary;
paths which are always and everywhere urgent,
especially in the Land where You were born,
the Prince of Peace.[/quote]

And [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/urbi/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20051225_urbi_en.html"]here[/url] is the full text of Benedict's first [i]Urbi et Orbi [/i]message, and the main passage in discussion:

[quote]May the God who became man out of love for humanity strengthen all those in Africa who work for peace, integral development and the prevention of fratricidal conflicts, for the consolidation of the present, still fragile political transitions, and the protection of the most elementary rights of those experiencing tragic humanitarian crises, such as those in Darfur and in other regions of central Africa. May he lead the peoples of Latin America to live in peace and harmony. May he grant courage to people of good will in the Holy Land, in Iraq, in Lebanon, where signs of hope, which are not lacking, need to be confirmed by actions inspired by fairness and wisdom; may he favour the process of dialogue on the Korean peninsula and elsewhere in the countries of Asia, so that, by the settlement of dangerous disputes, consistent and peaceful conclusions can be reached in a spirit of friendship, conclusions which their peoples expectantly await.[/quote]

Hope that helps a little bit.

[philothea]

Thanks!

I guessed "Orbi" rather implied mentioning world matters... So other than some rather dramatic phrases, this year's seems pretty normal.

[Myles Domini]

Having watched Papa Bene give his urbi et orbi blessing live on EWTN and listened to what he had to say I find this criticism misplaced. I dont know why but I sense an undercurrent of discontent on phatmass these days, first the Papal Household preacher has the finger pointed at him and now the Roman Pontiff himself is receiving [i]constructive criticism[/i]. How quaint...

Pope Benedict XVI needs no defending, he is a great man in his own right but to all it should speak volumes that he began his address announcing with great joy the birth of the Savior requesting people open their hearts to him, condemning humanity's preoccupation with itself and its own achievements and saying that we should 'wake up' and take note of the birth of the God-man should speak for itself.

In Europe this is how its being reported:
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4558956.stm#"]Pope asks for spiritual 'wake-up' from the bbc[/url]

So because he cares about the suffering of people across the world we should be concerned about his orthodoxy? If you think thats bad you should read some of the sermons of Pope St Leo the Great where he asks the rich to share their wealth with the poor! My, my Pope St Leo what were you thinking? I'm surprised they gave you that title when you were so concerned with such worldly concerns...

Whats going on here...?

INXC
Myles

Edited December 26, 2005 by Myles

[philothea]

We're just nattering, Myles. I don't think anyone is seriously critical. I suppose we might be hoping to hear something that we could personally use...?

[Myles Domini]

Well if thats the case open the bbc link and listen to the urbi et orbi address in full (video, top right hand column). Personally, as often happens when I listen to Papa Bene, I was left heartened by what he had to say.

INXC
Myles

Edited December 26, 2005 by Myles

[philothea]

Maybe when I get home... Stupid proprietary formats.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.