Dating

[Lilllabettt]

I know this has probably already been addressed but anyway ...

What have you guys heard about discerning while dating? Everything I've ever been told says: don't do it. It can confuse things. And it's a risky business, because once you're "in love" with someone, its hard to break it off with them, even to follow what you know is your true vocation.

I understand that it's important to have a wide range of experience, to comprehend what you're giving up, as well as what you're gaining, with the vows ... but can't that experience be gained by doing some "world-widening" stuff like ... college, or a new job in a different city?

This is from the Nashville Dom's website ... it says what I'm trying to get across:

"Spiritual directors and those guiding someone in discernment should recognize the fact that we are all programmed by nature to union with the opposite sex. The closer we come to readiness for a religious commitment, the more disposed we will be for a natural commitment to a human person. That is why people in discernment need to be on their guard. Entering into serious relationships when one is searching for God’s will can result in much confusion and heartache. We tend to think that we have control over our relationships and deny the powerful connections that can take place both spiritually and physically between sincere, well meaning people. It is painful and often impossible to discern opposing desires. In other words, one is not going to be able to consider religious life when the heart is beating in more than one direction. More often than not, the choice of marriage is made or, if religious life is pursued, it is done with a heart bruised and inclined to wonder, “What if?” Such a disposition is hardly one in which a successful break from the world can be made. "

[OLAM Dad]

Lilllabettt,

The Nashville Doms give some great advice, IMO.

You mentioned that when dating you might fall 'in love' with somebody, effectively sidelining your true religious vocation. This could be true. However, it might also be true that a failed relationship might sour your opinion of marriage when that might be the vocation to which you are called. It can work both ways.

Also, I'm curious what you mean by 'dating'. I'm not a big fan of dating. I think that courting is a more appropriate term/activity. If you want to go out and have fun on the town then do it with somebody of your own sex or with a group. If you're looking for a spouse, then you are courting and doing that while you are discerning a religious vocation, which is also courting if you think about it, would be like dating two guys at the same time. Wrong!

Good Luck

Edited December 27, 2005 by OLAM Dad

[uruviel]

well, I believe it's different for everybody. It all depends on very many things, it can't be a general question as "can I date during discnerment" Do you feel called to the religous life? Have you started dating? If so, is it serious? Are you planning on marying or are you dating to make it more clear? I believe that if you have a vocation it never really goes away, and if you start dating and going into worldy stuff, of course the world is going to seem appealing, and then you will say, "The world is for me, so I think I should marry" But you have to go with, what do you truley think God wants me to do. And to find that out you must pray, do adoration, trust in God, and know that He will lead you to whatever is best for you. But dating may throw off your appeal to the religious life and make it confusing and harder. And you'll never really know if you were called or not if you marry, I think you explore both area's, but in the world area, don't go too far, because the world is so appealing. I hope this makes sense and I will pray for you. Thank you,
Good luck,
In Christ, Lori

[Lilllabettt]

Thank you both for your advice!

I'm not asking for myself, really ... just inquiring in general about what other people have been hearing. I made the decision not to date while discerning, and I truly haven't regretted it. It's been a real blessing for me, clearing my head of emotional clutter and giving me a more objective perspective of what God wants vs. what I'm "feeling."

My strategy:
I started seriously discerning my vocation right after I was Confirmed, and I knew, intuitively, that I didn't want to complicate matters by dating anyone while I was doing that. So I bought an inexpensive little silver ring and wore it on my ring finger. When guys "make a move" so to speak, I can just point to my ring, smile, and say "I'm taken." Some guys might see the ring and not make a move to begin with. It's a polite and easy way of declining, I think.

(Although I had some explaining to do when the people I know noticed it. I don't discuss my vocation with a lot of people in the "real" world ... so I usually just say it's a chastity ring, which it sort of is.) It worked for me, and I'm pretty sure of my vocation because I gave myself the time and space to figure it out.

OLAMdad... by dating, I mean the casual stuff that bambini my age typically engage in. Although, by that definition, I would probably not be for "dating" in any case, discerning or not. I feel like young people shouldn't be going on private outings with one another until they're at a point in their lives where they're ready to consider actually getting married. You're right, courting is a better term.

[she_who_is_not]

For a while in college I wore a ring that I called my "promise ring" and it symbolized my commitment to be chaste until marriage. It was a good way to tell guys what I was about but it was a reminder to myself as well. There were times when I'd be a frat party doing something stupid and getting too flirty and I would just look at it and come back to my senses. I, like Olam Dad think that dating in general can be kind of dangerous. it's important that there is an element of trust and friendship when dating or courting. When you are discerning your vocation in life the most important thing is to give everything to God. I think that means that you should pray and reflect about people you go out with as you would before visiting a religious community. I guess in short what I am trying to say is if you are going to date, in general, you need to be serious about it and be self aware. Having confidence, self-esteem, and staying close to God will really protect you when dating. Be picky about who you date. Pray about people who ask you out. Involve your family or other people who love you. This is a really long-winded answer but I guess what I am trying to say if someone is dating during discernment they need to remember to put God first in both areas.
God's Peace,
Amanda

[the_rev]

I thinkg dating and discerning is the best way to go.

If you become an ordained or consecrated person, and never dated, you will always have doubt, you may not be one hundred percent sure that you are at the heart of your vocation.

I currently am dating a girl (finally) I found a girl at church, I called her up and asked her to go out on a date. tomorrow we are going to a basket ball game together!

[Lilllabettt]

Yay!!!!! Congratulations!!!!!

[quote]I currently am dating a girl  tomorrow we are going to a basket ball game together![/quote]

You said:

[quote]If you become an ordained or consecrated person, and never dated, you will always have doubt, you may not be one hundred percent sure that you are at the heart of your vocation.[/quote]

I don't agree ... and you know, Sr. Catherine Marie (or Sister Mary Emily, or whoever wrote the current Vocation FAQ at [url="http://www.nashvilledominican.org/Vocation/Questions_and_Answers/index.htm"]Nashville's site[/url] doesn't agree either:)

"The fact is that God calls all kinds of people to union with Him in all kinds of ways. It is not necessary to enter into marriage to truly know whether or not one is called to marriage. It is also reasonable to conclude that one doesn’t have to have had a serious romantic relationship before one can know she is called to the religious life."

Certainly a lot of the Saints (St. Therese!) were 100% sure about their vocations despite being relatively sheltered, "dateless wonders" as it were. Oh well, different strokes for different folks

[the_rev]

[quote]Certainly a lot of the Saints (St. Therese!) were 100% sure about their vocations despite being relatively sheltered, "dateless wonders" as it were. Oh well, different strokes for different folks happy.gif[/quote]

And I personally am not one of them. If I become ordained and didn't date I will always have a doubt. If I marry, I won't have a doubt as I have tried on the life of a priest....

I continue to pray about it.

[passionheart]

"Ah to date or not to date that is the question" ( My apologies to Mr. William Shakespeare : )


I believe this question is a very difficult to answer but I also believe that it is different for everyone. As you know I am 43 and I have never dated!!!!

Now a friend of mine told me that a religious community wouldn't consider me because it could very well appear that I am hiding or have a fear of a relationships.

Well for me I didn't date for one simple reason........No one ever asked Now, was I happy about this NO!!!! Especially since the doors of the religious life remained firmly shut to me. Believe me, I wanted to date but it didn't happen. One day, angrily, I went up the church where there was adoration and I said to the Lord "Would it have hurt your plan for me if I had ONE DATE in my life". Later, it was reveal to me that my lack of dating in my life was actually a protection from the Lord.

Unfortunately, when I was younger, I was wounded. As a result, I was desperate to cling to anyone who would provide me a little comfort and attention. I know if I had entered into a realationship back then, I would have been in a very bad situation. So I thank the Lord and now with help I have received, I can now freely embrace an relationship in love.

However, for me I know my call and my desire is to celibate. For me, the only Spouse I desire is Jesus. I have made the commitment in words and in my heart and that is that. Funny, after I made this quiet commintment to our Lord, THEN the guys started to show interest in me. Too Late, I have fallen love with my Beloved and I want no other.

So as I said my friends, each story is different and you have to discern and listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to you. It can be hard story like mine but AHHH there is Joy in the end.

[Lilllabettt]

What a beautiful story! You made my day!


[quote name='passionheart' date='Dec 27 2005, 08:56 PM']"Ah to date or not to date that is the question" ( My apologies to Mr. William Shakespeare : )
I believe this question is a very difficult to answer but I also believe that it is different for everyone. As you know I am 43 and I have never dated!!!!

Now a friend of mine told me that a religious community wouldn't consider me because it could very well appear that I am hiding or have a fear of a relationships.

Well for me I didn't date for one simple reason........No one ever asked   Now, was I happy about this NO!!!! Especially since the doors of the religious life remained firmly shut to me. Believe me,  I  wanted to date but it didn't happen. One day, angrily, I went up the church where there was adoration and I said to the Lord "Would it have hurt your plan for me if I had ONE DATE in my life".  Later, it was  reveal to me that my lack of dating in my life was actually a protection from the Lord.

Unfortunately, when I was younger, I was wounded. As a result, I was desperate to cling to anyone who would provide me a little comfort and attention. I know if I had entered into a realationship back then, I would have been in a very bad situation. So I thank the Lord and now with help I have received, I can now freely embrace an relationship in love.

However, for me I know my call and my desire is to celibate. For me, the only Spouse I desire is Jesus. I have made the commitment in words and in my heart and that is that.  Funny, after I made this quiet commintment to our Lord, THEN the guys started to show interest in me. Too Late, I have fallen love with my Beloved and I want no other.

So as I said my friends, each story is different and you have to discern and listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to you. It can be hard story like mine but AHHH there is Joy in the end.
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[jgirl]

That excerpt from the Nashville Dominicans site opened my eyes and made me feel more normal! I am committed to a religious order and am waiting to enter. The hardest part about being in the world still are the young men who live around me. I never seriously dated during high school because I was pretty sure that my heart was being drawn toward a religious vocation (I went to prom with a good friend from Church and then on a few others in college, but never steady dating). It sounds crazy because in high school my best friends were boys, but it wasn't hard not to date. It has only been recently that I desire a relationship like that, although I know in my heart that I am still called to the religious life. Even though I am very much attracted to the 20-something male population, I know that I don't regret my decision to enter religious life without serious dating. Had it been the other way with dating and possibly marriage, I would have always questioned whether or not I made the right decision.

[daugher-of-Mary]

I made the decision not to date during highschool, and that wasn't too difficult to stick to. Some of my best friends are guys, but choosing not to date provided a lot of protection I think, and gave me room to discern seriously. I'm not sure what I'll do in college. I've already met some simply wonderful Catholic guys who have become dear friends very fast, and I think it will be a struggle to stay out of a dating relationship. God seems to have made us to long to give of self to another, and it is a struggle to do that on a purely spiritual level as one preparing to be a bride of Christ. He seems to provide though! The quote from the Nashville Dominicans was a wonderful encouragement!

[Franziskaner]

I'm going to tell my story and see what that spurs. I'm 33 years old and as of roughly 5 months ago I have for the first time become open to the possibility of the priesthood. This happened because a few people asked if I have ever considered it and I felt like maybe it is something I should. Ever since I was little I have dreamed of being married and even when I misbehaved, I would ask myself if I would want my child to behave that way. I've done a LOT of dating in the last year and a half. I believe there to be a non-exclusive stage before entering into a formal courtship, exclusive stage. My last girlfriend broke up with me in September of 2004 and we were technically chaste during our relationship. I have not kissed anyone after Septmeber '04 since I have not been in a committed relationship though I did go on 12 dates with one "young" lady before deciding she did not currently have the potential to love me the way I required. She is still my friend and I have to be very careful not to fall in love with her so I try to space out how often I see her and make sure the hug goodbye is VERY brief, nothing like when we went on dates. Since I have loved her in a chaste brotherly-sisterly way, we are able to keep a certain emotional and physical distance. It takes someone who is very emotionally and spiritually mature to love someone like a sister in this way and the Holy Spirit has given me this Grace. I have gone on dates with probably at least 15 different women since Sept '04 if not more and every one of them has been a pure experience. The reason I go slow and treat dating this way is because I want to be gentle with a woman's heart (as well as my own). I don't want to pretend we are married when we are in a non-committed stage where we don't even truly know each other yet. If I decide to kiss someone, I want it to be because I have taken time to know her and I choose to do so, not because "it felt right at the time". I have been studying people and studying love and studying dating. I think that maybe I have reached a certain understanding of Love and being gentle and putting "her" before me or capital "H" - Him before me and it is this understanding of mine that people see when they ask if I have thought of the priesthood. It also might be because I talk about God and religion A LOT (I'm obsessed about Him). I believe the formation of a Catholic single is the same either preparing for marriage or preparing for the priesthood. We ALL are called to strive for holiness. I'm not sure that success in this striving should mean one is "Called". I think that knowing how to love and be pure and gentle is the way EVERY Catholic man needs to prepare himself for marriage or otherwise. I think it is a shame that Catholic women see a good guy like me and think I am called to the priesthood just because I might mention things about dressing immodestly or waiting until marriage, etc.

I went on a cruise with Catholic singles group and spoke with a priest who does marriage counseling. He said that each member of a couple has come from two diffrent sets of parents and they both think that the way they were raised is the right way. This belief causes conflict and this conflict is called Family of Origin issues. The priest said that the members of the couple need to die a little death on their cross each day (or several times a day) and realize that they are in a brand new relationship with unlimited possibilities and God is in charge of this new ideal. It was with this analogy that I realized that I needed to conquer my own Family of Origin issues by letting my dream of marriage die a little death on the cross. It has been a slow process to move from being "open to the priesthood" to "discerning the priesthood". I have to think about what talents God has given me and how they can best be used. God has given me skills in musical instruments, voice, computer programming, logic, critical thinking, business, and social skills that have allowed me to grow our YA group from 4 to 75 members. I actually do not have a problem attracting women, but I have become ever increasingly particular about whom I will consider dating. Often, when I am interested in a woman, she is not interested in me and vice versa. Such is life. God might want me to be a Dad. God might want me to continue in the business world so I can donate money. God might want me to be a missionary. God might want me to stay where I am and be a Diocesan priest. God might want me to be brother. God might want me to join a third order or join the deaconate later in life. I think I could be a good pastor with my business skills, so that might be what God wants of me.

I think my job now is to pray, pray, pray, pray, and then pray. The last two girls I went out on a date with criticised me for dating and considering the priesthood. One of them said that since I go to bed at 8pm to get up by 4 to pray, that that doesn't allow me to have a social life. She is wrong. My social life is when it is light out (helps keep us chaste too). I have heard "I can't compete with God" also. That would be true and very observant. I think the woman who would be right for me would have to be VERY spiritually and emotionally developed and know how to let go and let God. It is not all about her. It is not all about me. It is all about Him. When we are dating non-exclusively, no one should be so attached that they would be hurt by the other answering God's call. Life is a learning process and you don't close yourself off from the world to learn. God knows everything, I don't. God knows His plan for me, I don't. I pray so that I will be in union with Him in all my actions. If he puts a wonderful Catholic woman in front of me who will bring me closer to Him, it would be trying to modify God's plan to NOT date her. The right woman for me will not interrupt my prayer life. The right woman for me, will join in my prayer life. There is a reason I have not found her, but I don't know the reason yet. The reason might be that I have a religious vocational Calling. The reason might be that I need to go through this spiritual growth regardless. I have been dating all the while through it and I am planning on dating anyone who is mature enough to handle God's will.

I am doing my part. Currently, I go to Mass 4 days a week. I pray the Rosary daily. I pray Liturgy of the Hours daily. I am looking forward to beginning to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet. I look forward to getting to a point of going to daily Mass. I look forward to forming a devotion to the Blessed Sacrament. I given my bedroom a holy "feel" by making a shrine in it and I pray by candlelight. I am only going to get closer to God and closer to His will. I have women friends who are my sisters in Christ and male friends who are my brothers in Christ. Occasionally I will date a sister in Christ and treat her accordingly. I will not date anyone who had sex with her last boyfriend and since we both know how to practice chastity we are on the same page and there is little to no danger of falling out of Grace.

All that said, I came to this website to learn. I don't want to do the wrong thing. I don't want to break a woman's heart... but then again, I am not at the point of deciding whether or not to be exclusive with anyone today. It would be ridiculously immature of a woman's heart to be broken before entering courtship phase and no one can be held responsible for that since marriage is marriage, courtship is courtship, and non-exclusive dating is non-exclusive dating. Perhaps it would be wrong to enter in a courtship phase when discerning the priesthood. I'm not sure since God is in control, not us. We can do know wrong when we are in line with God. Anyone else?

[Franziskaner]

Okay I tried to put the shoe on the other foot here:

I thought about whether or not I would date someone who is considering being a nun. I think I would approach it the same way I would approach anyone. Dating and life are not competitions. I'm not competing with God. If she chooses God, she is free to choose God. If she chooses a covenant between her, I, and God, then that is a choice of her free will and hopefully God's will. I am in control of my emotions, not her. I can love her as freely as I love anyone who I date non-exclusively. I think I would continue to date her non-exclusively even after 3 months because of the obvious risk. She would be "dating" two people at once by discerning a vocation to religious life anyway so it seems fair. I guess someone who would not be open to dating someone who is discerning would have to be a more controlling jealous type or at least someone who does not understand that "Love is patient". Let God figure it out. There's no harm done to you. Being jealous of God or saying "I can't compete with God" seems to come from the wrong place. Someone who would say "I can't compete with God" would have to ask himself, am I competing with other men? Be yourself. Be genuine. Be real. No reason to compete. If someone is going to love you for who you are, then they will. If not, what is the difference as long as you are striving for holiness the entire time. Our self esteem comes from knowing we are performing God's will, not from whether or not we beat out some perceived competitor in a perceived competition (a.k.a game). To be yourself is to not play the game. To compete against other men is a game. Men who AREN'T interested in playing games would actually choose to date a woman discerning a vocation, especially since she must have a great capacity to love freely.

[Lilllabettt]

Welcome to Phatmass, Franziskaner!! Be sure to introduce yourself on OpenMic!!

And thank you for your thoughtful response! Your experience is priceless knowledge!

"Courtship" refers (I think) to an exclusive relationship which the parties agree is leading to marriage. (eek, I sound like a lawyer.) It means, you're spending time with this or that person with the view that she or he is going to be your wife or husband some day.

Okay, this is crude. but here goes. You know those "Bachelor" or "Bachelorette" programs they show on ABC? The "bachelor" dates a dozen girls, whittling them down to two. With these two women he's supposed to be seriously thinking about marriage. He smooches, dances slow, talks about the future with both of them.

And the normal, gut reaction is: That's WRONG! How can he be making out with two different people? How can he be contemplating giving his whole self to one girl, and at the same time be thinking about giving himself to another? It makes it seem like his affections for neither of them are authentic.

So let's apply that to the spiritual plane. If you're contemplating giving your whole self to the Church as a priest, how can you be contemplating giving your whole self to a girl in the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony at the same time?

That's why, in addition to the practical "confusion" reasons, I think it'd be the wrong choice to court while discerning. As for casual dating ... welllll ... I personally don't think men and women should be spending un-escorted "alone time" together unless they are "courting," that is, at a time and place in their spiritual lives where they are preparing for marriage. But that's just me

Once again, welcome to the phamily!!!!

[jgirl]

That's a really good way of putting it!

[Franziskaner]

Lillabet,

I don't know what OpenMic is. I tend to agree with you about not entering a courtship phase while discerning. I know that it is common for chastity speakers and chastity books to tell a male and female to not to spend time alone outside of a group setting. I believe this is very good advice for a high schooler who has not experienced any mistakes, a.k.a mortal sins of a sexual nature, yet since he wouldn't know what gets him in trouble and what keeps him out of trouble. I mentioned that I am 33. I also mentioned that I went on 12 dates with someone and never kissed her. This also means we never hugged except to say "hello" and "goodbye". We never held hands and I never put my arm around her. We never jumped into deeply emotional conversations either. For example, before this one young lady and I ever went on a first date she exclaimed that she will not date a guy who secretly views porn. Even though I don't view porn, I thought that that is no topic for two people to be discussing that early on since it is such an intimate question. My answer to her was plain and simple, if a guy viewed porn in secret, then you wouldn't know. Generally a girl like her who does not know what is appropriate and what is not appropriate on an emotional level is not someone I would date. I only date women who are emotionally and spiritually mature which means they can handle restarining the conversations to an appropriate level.

Speaker Dave Sloan (see www.godofdesire.com) starts his talk "Dating is not a dirty word." In other words, spending time alone (for adults) and having a conversation over dinner is not a sin and actually is something that Our God, the God of Desire, the God who created our desires would encourage adults to do so long as we treat each other with the utmost respect. Even Christopher West when discussing Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body says that we need to remove our veil of thinking of our sexuality as if it were something dirty. God made us male and God made us female and He made us attracted to one another. Christopher West goes so far as to say that if a male and female are alone in a room with the door closed, our minds should not be so jaded by society that we assume something funny is going on in there. Purity is possible and it begins in the heart. Of course we are human and I generally don't sit in a room with a woman with the door closed because I know the limitations of purity in my heart. That would be too intimate of a situation for me and for her, especially since I am nowhere near entering a courtship phasse with anyone.

Going straight into a courtship phase without first being in a non-exclusive friendship is a "trial marriage" that is very common in our society today. I'm not into that. That is why I said marriage is marriage, courtship is courtship, non-exclusive dating is non-exclusive dating.

The way I see it, if you take off all of these rules and just observe the natural beautiful way some people fall in love, it happens like this: A guy is a good Catholic and is involved at church, does some volunteering, goes to some social events. Most things are groups or after a group event, a few friends might go for coffee. Sometimes it just might be two guys going for coffee, sometimes two girls, sometimes a guy and a girl, sometimes a group of people. All in all, this guy is open to dating someone because he is single but doesn't have anyone in mind because he either doesn't know some of the women well enough yet or is not attracted to the ones he does know for whatever reason. Okay, so a few months go by and he notices that he really enjoys one of the women's company and he asks her out on a date. If she says no, then ideally both are mature and life goes on as normal and they still enjoy each other's company. If she says yes, then when they go to coffee instead of it being a "friendship" meeting, it becomes a "friendship dating" meeting. Physically nothing changes, conversation-wise nothing changes, but he might flatter her a little bit more. He also can buy her a card or a small inexpensive gift or a flower. Nothing too big of a deal and nothing too intense. At the same time if he enjoys another girl's company, preferable form another city, he may ask her to go on a date. If the woman that he has begun "friendship dating" knows a guy that she is interested in getting to know better other than him, then she may go out with him too sometimes. There is no everyday phone calling talking for hours, there is no opening up of your deepest yearnings, it is just relaxed, not intense. Really other than the little romantic gifts, the only difference is he is buying the coffee. This NEVER means that they cut themselves off completely from the groups they are in. Both of them continue to be involved at church, both of them continue to do some charity work... feed the hungry, clothe the needy, visit the imprisoned.. basic Jesus-inspired stuff. It is important for them to always keep their brothers and sisters in their lives for it is how well we love all of our bros and sisters that we can see each other's capacity to freely love. Eventually, either the "friendship dating" phase dissappears or receds back into "friendship" and nothing changes much, or it grows into something more. If it recedes back to friendship, nothing changes except she starts paying for herself and they can try to keep the conversation at a lower intesity level as well as he will not be buying her cards. THIS POINT IS A KEY POINT - Okay, this is as far as I think anyone should go who is considering a vocational life and I will explain more in the next paragraph. Now, if the guy's relationship with one of these women is going really well and she is willing to go to an exclusive stage, they can agree on this. Either one can still back out at anytime since they are NOT married. What DOES change is the intensity gets kicked up a notch in the conversation. They start truly DISCERNING whether or not they are compatible as lifelong partners, but they still make sure to keep it light and fun when they can since God wants us to enjoy eahc other's gifts. After a little period of this they can kick it up a notch and enter into formal courtship and go over some marriage preparation handbooks and see where they are headed. If they determine they are not compatible, then they may end it. If the end it, does this mean that the guy does not have a vocation to marriage? No. This means that the process starts over again and he hangs out with his friends (though he NEVER should have negelected his friends in the first place). Maybe should I say, he continues hanging out with his friends. The cycle can continue until he finally meets the woman who God intended him to meet and they get engaged, marry, and have lots of babies. Of course there could be some break ups after engagements, but I've never been engaged so I wouldn't know about that though it does seem to be a real part of life.

I was keeping that simple. Now let's name some stages in the story above. Stage 1, I'll call "Friendship". Stage 2, I'll call "Friendship Dating". Stage 3, Exclusive Dating. Stage 4, Courtship. Stage 5, Engagement. Stage 6, Marriage. The key point I mentioned in the story above is between Friendship Dating and Exclusive Dating.

We could modify the story above to include the formation of a single man: He is in the friendship stage and he becomes open to the possibility of priesthood for the first time in his life. It is scary, but he is willing to do what God's will is, if he only knew what it was. The guy kicks up his praying a notch so he can hear God. He starts visitng the Blessed Sacrament, he meets a vocational diretor. At the same time, the guy naturally progresses to dating some of the nice women, the same as in the story above. He keeps the intensity of it low. He increases his intensity in discerning the priesthood. He visits some orders for a come-and-see. He meets with other men discerning the priesthood once a week to pray with them. Through all of this, he continues being active at church, doing volunteering, and hanging out with friends. Now we are at the KEY POINT. It is time to progress to an exclusive stage with a woman whose company he enjoys very much. As a matter of fact, when he sees her, he sees God's beauty revealed to him. Not only that, they have teamed up in their volunteering and can see that they do well together and carry out God's will in union splendidly. When he looks at her, he thanks God for making him a man and placing the tender in desire for her in his heart (very Christopher West / JPII). Such is life, we have a decision to make. Which progressed faster (naturally), his discernment process to religious vocation or his calling to court her?

Let's say that he feels he has not gotten to a point where he has finished his discernment process. I believe it is his obligation to God to continue the discernment process until he has an answer. This does not mean he has to enter the seminary, but he needs to give God more time to work on his heart. If this is the case, then he needs to not yet move to the exclusive stage with his lady friend. This may perturb her and since she is dating other guys she may decide to exclusively date one of them. That is fine. This is living life and still putting God first for the guy. Perhaps, she has a huge freely-loving heart and an enormous amount of patience and she will continue in a non-exclusive stage for a few more months with him. This means both of them will continue being friends with others and will continue dating others. If enough time goes by and their relationship does not continue to grow, they must consider ending it or reducing it to friendship status (which happens naturally when she starts liking another guy more than him or vice versa).

Let's say that he has his answer from God and knows that no matter who he is currently dating, he is certain he is called to a marital vocation. Then he may move to an exclusive stage with his love interest. He still needs to keep praying as much as he was before because foormation is EXACTLY the same for a religous vocation as it is for a marital vocation.

Let's say that he has his answer from God and he knows that no matter who he is currently dating, he is certain he is called to a religious vocation. He needs to knock all "friendship dating" relationships back to "friendships" and not have anymore "friendship dating" encounters. This is less natural and more analytical and controlled than anything before but is necessary to move forward in the direction of his calling. He may enter a seminary, etc. If you saw the movie on TV recently about JPII, it seems he did have a friendship with a woman right up until he chose to become a priest and the viewer was left uncertain if it was his girlfriend or friend. She did not disappear from his life just because he became a priest, bishop, and pope. This is part of what makes him a great man (if the TV depiction was accurate). JPII gets love moreso than any other human (not human/God) I have ever read about.

A priest must love. A priest must understand relationships in order to counsel relationships. A priest must be connected to his parishoners if he is Diocesan. A priest must be connected to his students if he is a teacher. Priesthood is not about sitting behind closed doors hiding frm people for fear of getting to close to them. Priesthood is about walking among the people and being an example of love to them. If a man does not know how to have a pure and free relationship with a woman, then what kind of priest would he make? We have had enough priests with social disorders who have become priests to try to hide from society and their society-related problems. Jesus lived in this world. Jesus played with children. Jesus loved Mary Magdalene in a way she had never been loved by a man before. Priests are to imitate Jesus. Priests shall befriend their Mary Magdalene's. We need more normal priests. We need more normal guys to become priests. Men who know the world and live in the world, yet are able to attain a proper example of what it means to be holy. Priests who invite people in rather than cast them out.

Okay, it is important to say that generally priests have to worry about scandal and it is a priests practice to never be in a car driving alone with a woman or to only be alone with a woman if they are in a public place. Even better is to only be in a public place with two or more women, not one. This is not because he cannot trust himself to be alone with a woman, this is only because people are people and they talk. The woman might make up a story. Someone who is jealous might make up a story, etc.

A priest is a priest, a seminarian is a seminarian, a discerner is a discerner. I think probably a seminarian should be careful about how much time he spends alone with a woman, but not be as careful as a priest. If we are treating the women in our lives like sisters, then there can be nothing wrong with that. I think someone who is discerning has even less to worry about. If a woman won't date a man who is discerning the priesthood, then there is no reason for him to try to convince her since either that is just her preference or she might not be mature enough to be free.

Priesthood = Marriage
Seminarian = Exclusive Dating, Courtship, Engagement
Discernment = Friendship Dating

Priesthood, Marriage, Seminarian, Exclusive Dating, Courtship, Engagement, all of these = Friendship

Discernement = "I don't know, but I am open to God's will"
Discernment = "What is God's will?"
Discernment = "I am going to increase my prayer life to hear God's will"

If someone is open to marriage and open to religious vocation and wants to let God work on him, then the only way is to live life somewhat naturally and to move towards potential marriage and to move towards God. Religion is not about hiding form life. Religion is about immersing yourself in it. Life is where you will find God's glory until....

Heaven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited January 1, 2006 by Franziskaner

[OLAM Dad]

Franziskaner,

You're old enough
You're experienced enough
You clearly are wise enough

So...

What's stopping you? What frightens you?

[uruviel]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='Dec 27 2005, 04:01 PM']Thank you both for your advice!

I'm not asking for myself, really ... just inquiring in general about what other people have been hearing.  I made the decision not  to date while discerning, and I truly haven't regretted it. It's been a real blessing for me, clearing my head of emotional clutter and giving me a more objective perspective of what God wants vs. what I'm "feeling."

My strategy:
I started seriously discerning my vocation right after I was Confirmed, and I knew, intuitively, that I didn't want to complicate matters by  dating anyone while I was doing that.  So I bought an inexpensive  little silver ring and wore it on my ring finger.  When guys "make a move" so to speak, I can just point to my ring, smile, and say "I'm taken."  Some guys might see the ring and not make a move to begin with. It's a polite and easy way of declining, I think.

(Although I had some explaining to do when the people I know noticed it. I don't discuss my vocation with a lot of people in the "real" world ... so I usually just say it's a chastity ring, which it sort of is.) It worked for me, and I'm pretty sure of my vocation because I gave myself the time and space to figure it out.

OLAMdad... by dating, I mean the casual stuff that bambini my age typically engage in. Although, by that definition, I would probably not be for "dating" in any case, discerning or not. I feel like young people shouldn't be going on private outings with one another until they're at a point in their lives where they're ready to consider actually getting married.  You're right, courting is a better term.
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oh ok, I wasnt sure if this was speaking in terms of yourself. I personally believe it is not wise to date while discerning for myself, but that might not be just right for everyone.
The ring is a good idea,

"clearing my head of emotional clutter and giving me a more objective perspective of what God wants vs. what I'm "feeling.""
That's exactly right, that's what I want. To clear my own head so that I am discern and make a wise discision. Now, it is a major choice to enter somewhere, but I believe it would be ok to enter unsure and figure out that you don't belong there and leave, than not enter and wonder forever.

[Franziskaner]

OLAM Dad,

Thank you for the compliments. I think I am wise enough to know I am not wise enough if that makes sense. A lot of the stuff I wrote is a mix of materiel I have read, speakers I have heard, life experience, and meditation. Personally, I am not very far in the discernment process time wise. I am meeting the Diocesan vocational director tomorrow for the first time for lunch. Before making that appointment, I had a personal friend who was a priest and we have been discerning together but neither of us know what God wants from me yet. He has said we need men like me to be good husbands and fathers and other times has let me know that we need priests with minds like mine too. There is a prayer group I need to get in touch with of other discerning men and I think that is going to help too.

I'm very busy at work as well as facilitating a Theology of the Body class and hosting nationally-recognized speakers. I also started a new Chastity Task Force for our area and have finally found a few others who are interested in joining our core team. I am writing a book on Catholic Dating and have been asked to speak as a chastity speaker. In spite of all of this, I have been able to make time to read the Bible and pray about 2 hours a day. I am maintaining and forming relationships with priests and go for a meal one-on-one with a priest approximately weekly. I also spend time with women one-on-one and that really helps me learn to be a brother. Obviously God is working on me and the Holy Spirit is guiding me and our faith community is reaping the benefits of his work as we speak. I have really been feeding our TOB study group and they are spiritually hungry so that has been a beautiful thing.

I have been growing in my faith for years by moving in baby steps and it seems like by doing it that way, the changes in me are more permanent. I think by moving judiciously, then my decisions will be wise. I spent last night talking to a spiritual female friend about this stuff and she helped clarify some thoughts for me. A month ago I said something like this, "Maybe since I am 33 and haven't found a wife, I should look into being a priest because it isn't like I'm having any luck the other way." now I say "Maybe the meaning behind me being single right now is because God intends for me to become a priest." The difference might seem subtle, but it is HUGE and genuine. It's almost like God has been calling me all along but I didn't want to hear Him. She asked me if I was confused and I said Yes. She said "God is a god of certainty." I said "God is certain of His will, but I am not certain of His will because I am not God." She agreed. The bad thing is that a month ago I was feeling very calm and very patient but since then I have become stressed and I grind my teeth and my jaw is tense. This does not sound like a healthy spiritual experience to me. The best part of it all is that praying so much is offsetting the stress. I use an anology to explain the stress. I think that infants grow so fast that it is stressful on their bodies (debatable, but that's my stance). Also, the ancient Jews believed if a person saw God, he/she would die. This is because He is so awesome it is overwhelming. To know God better is a good thing but it can be overwhelming when you are exposed to God in a big way in a short period of time. This is analogical to the stress I feel. I am gaining so much theological knowledge as well as a heightened spiritual awareness that every day is like my first day with knowledge; what I know today makes it seem like yesterday I was a fool. It is affecting my dreams as well as my consciousness. I'm really digging it, but it is a bit hard on my body. I'm going with it but also waiting for that sense of serenity.

I've just begun looking into the different orders by reading a book about them on my lunch break so I have not gone on a come-and-see yet. I need to find a conservative, orthodox order if I am to do this so that I receive a good formation. One reason I am going around meeting high-level diocesan priests is because I want to see what I would be getting myself into. It is obvious that a lot of our priests do not practice chastity based on the results of court cases of child molestations. I have also met priests who do not revere the sacraments. Priests who will advise a promiscous male to use a condom... Priests who advise people to go to Communion while in a state of mortal sin by confessing their sins straight to God rather than going to Confession. A lot of these priests call themselves orthodox and claim that most priests feel as they do. I have to discern how I would fit into a diocese like this. I am not afraid to be the voice of chastity in a diocese like this but wonder what a vow of obedience would mean when making it in front of a liberal bishop. I have been in the corporate world and am used to bureacracies that are bigger than me and the Church is bigger than life itself. I think I handle what is thrown my way in a humble, yet evangelical way (on my good days). I do have to see where I fit in in this Diocese and perhaps it is better to be as a member of a parish with no vow of obedience. I am not one to move to a different diocese but more one to work on positive reform from within. It is sad that chastity and reform are being used in the same sentence when talking about the heirarchy of the Church, but there is at least some truth in what I am discussing. I don't think I am afraid of anything, but more contemplative. I guess that is why we use the word discerning.

I have applied to be a youth minister at a parish that received publicity for having two male gay parents of children in their school. I think it would make complete sense for God to place me in that parish because they could use a straight male who believes in male-female relationships and who is chaste to spread the word of God. This is not a criticism of the parish or school since they simply had a difficult situation they had to deal with and they did what they could. My reason for telling you this is to show you that I am more interested in God's will than any kind of fear.

Hopefully some of what I wrote is relevant to dating and discerning since there is a bit about chastity in what I wrote.

To answer your question, if I was to enter an order, I have a fear of the vow of poverty. I know I could avoid this by becoming a Diocesan priest, but I also know that taking a vow of poverty will help me to imitate Jesus which is one of the main points of becoming a priest. God will work on me in time and fears will be relieved and answers will come.

The option of being a husband is appealing to me. I was not raised in a home that EVER said the rosary as a family. We did go to Mass on Sundays and pray at meals though. I think if I was to have children, with the type of Catholic upbringing I would give my children, we would end up with more than one sister or priest. I would like to have 12 "disciples" of my own because I would like to modify the state of the world by raising my children to be pure and kind-hearted men and women. I think I am getting off topic. Sorry guys!