p0lar_bear Posted January 3, 2006 Posted January 3, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 3 2006, 02:26 PM']I think many catholcs idea of fidelity is pope worship. [right][snapback]844698[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Be that as it may, the CAI's blatant, and often militant, lack of respect for and obedience to the pope in particular and the hierarchy in general is troubling to say the least. I'm not prepared to enter into a debate on the CAI (and I don't think dUSt would apprecitate it), but I just wanted to offer a bit of warning. I know you are struggling with a lot of things with the Church. I know it hasn't been an easy journey for you so far, and I don't think following CAI will help you much in your attempts to stay in the heart of the Church.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 3, 2006 Author Posted January 3, 2006 [quote name='Rick777' date='Jan 3 2006, 03:27 PM']What Catholics have u been hangin around with? [right][snapback]844703[/snapback][/right] [/quote] this may seem overally critical but not every word that comes out of the Popes mouth is Authentic teaching.
p0lar_bear Posted January 3, 2006 Posted January 3, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 3 2006, 02:53 PM']this may seem overally critical but not every word that comes out of the Popes mouth is Authentic teaching. [right][snapback]844723[/snapback][/right] [/quote] More so than the words coming from CAI...
Guest Rick777 Posted January 3, 2006 Posted January 3, 2006 Wow, I thought you were a mega traditionalist Extra ecclesiam nulla salus, then came back, your comments sound like their from a liberal.
p0lar_bear Posted January 3, 2006 Posted January 3, 2006 [quote name='Rick777' date='Jan 3 2006, 03:00 PM']Wow, I thought you were a mega traditionalist Extra ecclesiam nulla salus, then came back, your comments sound like their from a liberal. [right][snapback]844734[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That kind of statement is used by both sides to justify attacks against the pope and disobedience to any teaching they deem to be outside of authentic teaching. Actually, his statement is correct, we are not required to believe and/or support everything the Pope says and does. But using this as justification for dissent is inexcusable.
OLAM Dad Posted January 3, 2006 Posted January 3, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 3 2006, 03:26 PM']so you say. I think many catholcs idea of fidelity is pope worship. [right][snapback]844698[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Can you explain this comment? I'm honestly confused and don't get your point.
Guest Rick777 Posted January 3, 2006 Posted January 3, 2006 (edited) So if the Holy Father says that he is for something,(like a social issue)than Catholics aren't bound to agree with him?(im learning so much here ) Edited January 3, 2006 by Rick777
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 3, 2006 Author Posted January 3, 2006 [quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Jan 3 2006, 04:18 PM']Can you explain this comment? I'm honestly confused and don't get your point. [right][snapback]844749[/snapback][/right] [/quote] first i will respond to Ricky. absoultely not ricky. Basically i am disugsted by the present state the church is in. The Second Vatican council (due to its ambiguity) was hijacked by Modernists. I really disagree with many of the Things that the Post concliar church teaches on Ecumenicism, relegious freedom, salvation outside the church, the nature of the church etc. but.... I am really not sure about the SSPX. but what i meant was that if a pope teaches his private opinion or if (unofficial that is) teaches heresy im not going to obey him that is false obidience.
Dave Posted January 3, 2006 Posted January 3, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 3 2006, 04:33 PM']first i will respond to Ricky. absoultely not ricky. Basically i am disugsted by the present state the church is in. The Second Vatican council (due to its ambiguity) was hijacked by Modernists. I really disagree with many of the Things that the Post concliar church teaches on Ecumenicism, relegious freedom, salvation outside the church, the nature of the church etc. but.... I am really not sure about the SSPX. but what i meant was that if a pope teaches his private opinion or if (unofficial that is) teaches heresy im not going to obey him that is false obidience. [right][snapback]844769[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Sam, Did you get that book "More Catholic Than the Pope: An Inside Look at Extreme Traditionalism" like you said you would? That book addresses some of the issues you just cited, such as ecumenism. And Phatmass' reference section contains some excellent materials on ultra-traditionalism as well. Have you looked at it?
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 3, 2006 Author Posted January 3, 2006 i have indeed looked over the phatmass reference dictionary. I will buy the book by Pat madrid. and i will read it (eventually) God Bless, Sam
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 What is your stance on ecumenism, religious freedom, and salvation outside the Church?
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 4, 2006 Author Posted January 4, 2006 I can't excpet any of those things. when it comes to ecumencism i think its fine to pray with protestants under the circumstance it is private worship, and preferably a Catholic is leading the prayers. I do not believe in Relegious freedom for Non-catholics. I believe it is possibile for salvation outside of the church, if the person is invincibley ignorant by no fault of there own and is invisibly united to the church.
shortnun Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 [quote name='Rick777' date='Jan 3 2006, 04:21 PM']So if the Holy Father says that he is for something,(like a social issue)than Catholics aren't bound to agree with him?(im learning so much here ) [right][snapback]844756[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As Catholics, anything that the Magesterium (local bishiops, bishop's conferences, the Holy Father, etc) says we are not obligated to just accept. Nor are we to simply make up the teaching we think we should follow. Rather, we are to learn all we can about a teaching, social issue, etc that is put forth. By using our well (continually) developed consciences, we are to inform ourselves as to whether or not this teaching is one we are to abide by. At least.... that's what I've been taught....
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 3 2006, 07:04 PM']I can't excpet any of those things. when it comes to ecumencism i think its fine to pray with protestants under the circumstance it is private worship, and preferably a Catholic is leading the prayers. I do not believe in Relegious freedom for Non-catholics. I believe it is possibile for salvation outside of the church, if the person is invincibley ignorant by no fault of there own and is invisibly united to the church. [right][snapback]844897[/snapback][/right] [/quote] "Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win over those under the law. To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ--to win over those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some." 1 Corinthians 9:19-22 Religious freedom is a reality, no matter what one does to supress another religion. The fact is, the choice to accept a religious belief is an internal one. It is impossible to force a true conversion. Your position on salvation outside the Church is not in conflict with the magisterium. Except that the Church would say someone invisibly united to itself is in fact in the Church and not outside of it. God bless!
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 4, 2006 Author Posted January 4, 2006 If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you. John 1:20 just because it is reality doesn't mean it is right. from what i understand the traditonal view of EENS is more conservative in who is invisibly united to the church. we do not like the idea that the Pope goes and preaches in other relegions churches.
rkwright Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 3 2006, 05:27 PM']from what i understand the traditonal view of EENS is more conservative in who is invisibly united to the church. we do not like the idea that the Pope goes and preaches in other relegions churches. [right][snapback]844921[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I find this almost contradictory. If the role of the Church, and Christ's mission here on Earth was to 'win' souls, and if you hold to a strong 'no salvation outside the church' interpretation, then you should really want the Pope to get out there and preach in other churches. If you care for other people's souls, and you really believe that only those in the visible Catholic Church and those ignorant of Christ can be saved, then you should really really want the Pope and the whole Church reaching out to our brothers.
p0lar_bear Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 Just a reminder: dUSt has asked us to avoid Catholic vs. Catholic debate on the board. EENS, If you want (and if your parents are OK with it) you can email me about some of your questions that we can't debate here.
rkwright Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jan 3 2006, 07:00 PM']Just a reminder: dUSt has asked us to avoid Catholic vs. Catholic debate on the board. [right][snapback]845055[/snapback][/right] [/quote] my fault... forget I said anything...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 Let me clarify what I said earlier (this is not intended as a debate), Religious belief is the intellectual assent to a set of doctrines. You cannot force a conversion because you cannot change the thoughts of someone else with brute force. The Church recognizes this and wishes the civil authorities to protect against undue "evangelistic" brutality that usually does more harm than good.
Guest Rick777 Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 3 2006, 05:04 PM'] I do not believe in Relegious freedom for Non-catholics. [right][snapback]844897[/snapback][/right] [/quote]
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