Relationship between acts and character

[scardella]

A discussion last night prompted me this thought:

Is it possible to separate one's acts and one's identity?

No, because every act either reinforces who you are or serves to change it in some way. Thus, as long as we are in time, who we are is inexorably bound up in what we choose. However, we can play an active or a passive role in this. If you take a passive role, you only wind up reacting to stimuli around you. You effectively become no better than an animal. You're letting external forces shape who you are and what you do. However, if you lead an active role, you realize that every act of the will will change you. When you come to that realization, you must consider not only what you want, but where that choice will lead you.

[scardella]

Last night, there was a little nuance to this...

There's this nice little paradox in that your decisions flow from who you are already, but, in making that decision, you are modifying who you are, which will change other decisions you make, which will further modify you, which will ...

Additionally, it seems to have some relationship to grace and sanctification.

[Socrates]

"It's not who I am underneath, but my actions that define me." ~ [i]Batman Begins[/i]

[Ora et Labora]

I love that quote...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

I am a catholic

i have a problem acting christ like though.

[rkwright]

umm yes and no... like at the time of the action I would say yes, but I would be hesistant to let it define me.

Like say sin for example, I sinned in my past you could call me a sinner. But I try not to sin every day. When I pray I realize I am a sinner and need Christ, but I don't let that define me, instead I would see it as I'm doing my best to not sin and to avoid sin. Its kinda tough because the conntations of the word come into play. I don't like thinking I am sinner, even though I have, I want to think that overall I'm trying to do God's will and I occiasionally screw up. Maybe thats just pride, but I would feel like if I constantly told myself I am a sinner I am bad I have turned my back on God I would never get anywhere in life. It would go for other people too, just because someone messed up with me one time, and I could rightly call them a liar or whatever, I wouldn't want that to define who they are. Give 'em another chance type deal. Follow? Anyone agree or am I way off...

[rkwright]

how about 'you can if you let them', Just becuase you messed up once doesn't mean you have to let it run your life and become mistake.

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 6 2006, 06:02 PM']umm yes and no... like at the time of the action I would say yes, but I would be hesistant to let it define me.

Like say sin for example, I sinned in my past you could call me a sinner.  But I try not to sin every day.  When I pray I realize I am a sinner and need Christ, but I don't let that define me, instead I would see it as I'm doing my best to not sin and to avoid sin.  Its kinda tough because the conntations of the word come into play.  I don't like thinking I am sinner, even though I have, I want to think that overall I'm trying to do God's will and I occiasionally screw up.  Maybe thats just pride, but I would feel like if I constantly told myself I am a sinner I am bad I have turned my back on God I would never get anywhere in life.  It would go for other people too, just because someone messed up with me one time, and I could rightly call them a liar or whatever, I wouldn't want that to define who they are.  Give 'em another chance type deal.  Follow?  Anyone agree or am I way off...
[right][snapback]848341[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
What Batman is saying is consistent with traditional moral teaching.
Virtue and vice are gained by habit. A man may not feel "virtuous" inside when he first turns from vice and begins practicing virtuous actions, but his virtuous actions shape his soul, and by preforming virtuous acts he becomes actually virtuous. (Even though these actions may not at first feel "natural" to him.)

Likewise, one cannot habitually perform sinful or vicious actions, but excuse himself because "he's still a great guy underneath."

Of course, interior disposition has its importance in determining the rightness or wrongness of one's actions, but it is the choices for virtuous or vicious actions that determine one's moral status.

Actions matter.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 6 2006, 05:18 PM']What Batman is saying is consistent with traditional moral teaching.
Virtue and vice are gained by habit.  A man may not feel "virtuous" inside when he first turns from vice and begins practicing virtuous actions, but his virtuous actions shape his soul, and by preforming virtuous acts he becomes actually virtuous.  (Even though these actions may not at first feel "natural" to him.)

Likewise, one cannot habitually perform sinful or vicious actions, but excuse himself because "he's still a great guy underneath."

Of course, interior disposition has its importance in determining the rightness or wrongness of one's actions, but it is the choices for virtuous or vicious actions that determine one's moral status.

Actions matter.
[right][snapback]848347[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I agree with you here, especially your last sentence. But I think I was more on the idea that while actions can define you, you can change your mindset and then change your actions.

Edited January 7, 2006 by rkwright

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 6 2006, 06:28 PM']I agree with you here, especially your last sentence.  But I think I was more on the idea that while actions can define you, you can change your mindset and then change your actions.
[right][snapback]848350[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
You disagree that actions matter?

[rkwright]

no no not at all... Your actions define what you are, but you can change who you are. I wouldn't want my mind to get stuck in the past or my actions would also. If I want to do good I've got to change myself in my mind, and even though it doesn't define me yet, its like the first step.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 6 2006, 06:43 PM']"It's not who I am underneath, but my actions that define me." ~ [i]Batman Begins[/i]
[right][snapback]848322[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I have a problem with this quote.































It's incorrectly attributed by the tenses!

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 6 2006, 06:39 PM']no no not at all... Your actions define what you are, but you can change who you are. 
[right][snapback]848355[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
And this is done by changing one's actions. Unless one's actions change, the "conversion" is worthless.

"And why do we fall, Master Bruce?"

[rkwright]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 6 2006, 05:44 PM']And this is done by changing one's actions.  Unless one's actions change, the "conversion" is worthless.

"And why do we fall, Master Bruce?"
[right][snapback]848359[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

well its kinda circular, do you change your mind before you change your actions? or do you change your actions to change your mind?

I would say that we change our mind to change our actions to re-define oneself. So I've got to change how I define myself in order to change my actions in order to re-define.

Although I don;t have a psychology degree and I'm really reaching at straws here. If someone has something profound please feel free to add it!

[qfnol31]

I think that both happen.

The reason the Church calls us to do some actions is in hopes we will gain virtue from the repeated habit.

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 6 2006, 06:52 PM']well its kinda circular, do you change your mind before you change your actions? or do you change your actions to change your mind?
[right][snapback]848362[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
It really doens't matter. They go together.
The will must first change, and the will directs our actions.

The main point is that one cannot truly consider himself virtuous unless his acts are virtuous. "Being a nice guy inside" isn't enough.

[Tata126]

It's mostly about habits, which are of course acquired by taking actions, but you have to start taking those actions even when they might not mean anything yet, in order to build the virtue. For instance, if someone wants to start praying really well, they should start off by acting like it - kneeling, for instance, and saying the prayers slowly and reverently. Then even if they're distracted, they're building the habit of kneeling at prayer and praying reverently, and though they might not feel like they're praying really well, eventually the habit of prayer will help them grow to pray better. Similarly with charity - nobody ever begins being charitable because he feels charitable, he has to perform acts of charity when he feels like he would really rather punch the other person in the face, and even though he doesn't have the interior disposition, forming the habit of acting charitably will form the virtue of charity in him. So our exterior actions really do matter, but it's mostly what we do repeatedly instead of what we do once that forms our interior dispositions.

[journeyman]

[quote name='Tata126' date='Jan 7 2006, 10:23 PM']It's mostly about habits, which are of course acquired by taking actions, but you have to start taking those actions even when they might not mean anything yet, in order to build the virtue.  For instance, if someone wants to start praying really well, they should start off by acting like it - kneeling, for instance, and saying the prayers slowly and reverently.  Then even if they're distracted, they're building the habit of kneeling at prayer and praying reverently, and though they might not feel like they're praying really well, eventually the habit of prayer will help them grow to pray better.  Similarly with charity - nobody ever begins being charitable because he feels charitable, he has to perform acts of charity when he feels like he would really rather punch the other person in the face, and even though he doesn't have the interior disposition, forming the habit of acting charitably will form the virtue of charity in him.  So our exterior actions really do matter, but it's mostly what we do repeatedly instead of what we do once that forms our interior dispositions.
[right][snapback]849287[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

This presupposes that a conscious decision has been made to have a more prayerful or charitable life . . . the act of will (I shall pray) governs the physical act (I kneel and pray) . . . before the act of will, did I have a prayerful character? I don't think so. After the act of will, did I have a prayerful character? Again, I think the answer would be "not yet." However, the more I kneel and pray, as Tata suggests, the more prayer becomes a factor in all my actions, and I develop a prayerful character.

Under this pattern, the act of will determines the character that is desired, and the physical acts emulate the character until it in fact becomes part of the inner character.

A little undeserved grace doesn't hurt during the process.

[scardella]

Yeah, I was thinking about how it IS circular, but it still doesn't deny free will. I guess I'm trying to reinvent the wheel with virtue and vice theory, but it is interesting how past decisions and events bias and influence people, yet there's still room for free will, anyway. It's also interesting how the more you've invested in a particular way of acting, the more likely you are to act in that way.

There does seem to be a distinction in how we experience virtue and vice, though. In virtue, it seems to be bound up in freely choosing x, whatever good x may be. It does not give an apparent constraint against doing y as opposed to x, it just makes y no longer appealing. It reveals y for what it actually is. HOWEVER, in vice, doing y actually breaks down the free will (progressively) and it makes you less able to choose something else. You become ensnared by the vice. It can even happen that you can see the evil that the vice causes and begin to hate it, but you are still not able to choose otherwise. If this sounds suspiciously like addictions, you are exactly right.

Grace can, obviously, overcome these obstacles. One of the most interesting "categories" of grace, I find, is prevenient grace. It is a grace that strengthens the free will and lets one see clearly enough to be able to choose the good, despite the drowning of the will that is occurring.