Anna Posted July 23, 2003 Posted July 23, 2003 I've come across the Trail of Blood argument before. I think it was back when aussibeliever used to post on the old phorum. It was so contrived and historically incorrect. Who could take it seriously? Even Luther, the Father of Protestantism, conceded to the "Papists." Pax Christi. <><
ironmonk Posted July 23, 2003 Posted July 23, 2003 (edited) Iron Monk - you da (long winded) man! LOL... I like to cover all the bases. Mulls... Please... don't forget this... It's time to back up what you claim.... I give you a challenge... If you can do it, I'll join whatever church you say is the true church.... 1.. Prove the the Catholic Church teaching is wrong with the Bible, by posting links to the parts of the Catechism and quoting verses in the bible...here is the link to the Catechism http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm 2.. For you to find writings from the First Christians, before 1000 AD to show that the Catholic Church was not the Church that Christ built. (even Luther knew it was) Read this: http://www.logos.com/products/details/518 All those exact writings can be found at http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/ And I'll up it one... not only will I join a church of your choosing... I will give you $500. God Bless, ironmonk Edited July 23, 2003 by ironmonk
Anna Posted July 23, 2003 Posted July 23, 2003 (edited) IronMonk, Have you ever worked in a carnival? They always offer the biggest prize for the game that cannot possibly be won! Use the Bible to prove the Catechism wrong? Impossible! The Catechism perfectly compliments God's Holy Word, and applies practical life situations to those Biblical teachings---PLUS---references the Early Church Fathers and Church documents to boot! Who can find error in the Catechism?????????????? Step right up! Three tries for a buck!!!!!!! Edited July 23, 2003 by Anna
mulls Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 ironmonk, be careful of your pride, my brother. i'm all for your challenge....except for the fact that i work 40 hours a week, need to eat and sleep once in awhile, attend church on sundays (even though i'm 'wasting my time' there), need to get ready to go back to school in a month, and generally lead a busy life in general. but i may have a solution...how about you spot me the $500 ahead of time, and i will live off of that money while i do my reasearch. deal? also, would this challenge be limited to having to use only the links which you provided? that wouldn't seem quite fair. ok, now that the sarcasm has been put aside... why do Catholics put the writings of the church fathers nearly on the same level as scripture? why makes them special, or dare i say 'infallible?' isn't it possible that the fathers could have made doctrinal mistakes, or that the writings were somehow corrupted, or mis-translated, or messed up some other way? maybe these writings aren't even from the church fathers, maybe somebody forged them, and the true writings were really lost? God promised that He would preserve His Word, not the writings of the church fathers. i know that i must and will eventually study the history of the early church, and i think that these questions are a good start.
hyperdulia again Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 I get the feeling that you, brother, have put your fingers in your ears and started saying I can't hear you.
Dave Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 why do Catholics put the writings of the church fathers nearly on the same level as scripture? why makes them special, or dare i say 'infallible?' isn't it possible that the fathers could have made doctrinal mistakes, or that the writings were somehow corrupted, or mis-translated, or messed up some other way? maybe these writings aren't even from the church fathers, maybe somebody forged them, and the true writings were really lost? God promised that He would preserve His Word, not the writings of the church fathers. No, mulls, it's SACRED TRADITION that's on the same level as Scripture, not the writings of the Church Fathers. The Church Fathers are important, however, because they show us that the teachings of the Church now were the teachings of the Church then too. Some of them were taught directly by the 12 Apostles, and it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the Apostles would communicate errors in doctrine to them. You're correct that even Church Fathers can be mistaken (and they actually have been mistaken at times), but we don't go by them; we go by the teachings of the Church as found in Scripture and Sacred Tradition, transmitted to us by the Magisterium.
mulls Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 hyper, i would have run off a long long time ago if i felt that way. besides, its quite easy to say stuff like that when you're on the 'good guys' team with plenty of support.
hyperdulia again Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 Sean we love you. We want to bump into you in the life after this one. If you truly didn't know that the ECF aren't on the same level as scripture in the Catholic mind I apologize.
littleflower+JMJ Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 hey, we have to hand it to mulls you know.... there is soo much to learn and you know that its real hard to comprehend from the outside, heck, even from in the inside too! his questions are honest and well, good ones....i luv mulls for that! it takes alot to keep asking questions, and i admire him alot for that... so my point .... cut him some slack, he has done a great job hanging with us catholics....we have to have patience for one another, remember hyper when you first came? aww..seems like it was only yesterday.... anyways, i hope mulls stays a long long long long time here at phatmass! we're ALL phamily.... amen? amen! now hyper...be a good lit' catholic! or else...
mulls Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 hype, its all gravy, no prob, but notice i did throw 'nearly' into the mix there.... i know nobody in their right minds would put regular people on the same level as scripture i was just commenting on the fact that so many responses from you guys involve the writings of church fathers, and i am questioning whether that is truly a safe way to go. littleflower, you are a beautfiul person. enough said.
hyperdulia again Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 we dos so because MUCH of what the write gets the point accross that the early christians believed as we (catholics) do.
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