ECYD and Regnum Christi!

[ruso]

[quote=Vivacristorey,Jan 14 2006, 11:37



One last thing-
POPE BENEDICT SUPPORTS US AND LOVES US. THAT SHOULD BE ENOUGH. YOU KNOW HE IS NOT LIKE THE POPES WHO SUPPORTED THE NAZIS, OR AT LEAST I HOPE YOU KNOW THAT. PLEASE HUMBLE YOURSELF TO ACCEPT WHAT HE LOVES AND ACCEPTS.
________________________________
But it give account you of which you say?.

Edited January 14, 2006 by ruso

[morostheos]

Here's an article about John Paul II encouraging the Legionaries of Christ:
[url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=65639"]Pope Encourages Legionaries in Living Their Founder's Charism[/url]

[quote]VATICAN CITY, JAN. 31, 2005 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II sent a message to the Legionaries of Christ inviting them to live and transmit faithfully the charism they received from God through their founder, Father Marcial Maciel.

The Pope addressed his message today to the general chapter of the congregation, under way in Rome. Father Maciel, 84, recently declined re-election as general director, citing his age and his desire to support his successor's first steps.

The papal message begins by greeting the founder and Father Álvaro Corcuera, the newly elected general director of the Legion and the Regnum Christi Movement.

"You find yourselves in a historic moment for the life of the Institute, in which you begin a new stage," the Pope said in the text sent in Spanish. "You had the good fortune to journey for 64 years under the guidance of your Founder."

"Thus you grew and developed until you reached maturity. Now you must continue that journey guided by your new General Director, though not without the support, paternal affection and experience of Father Maciel, who has declined a new period of governance," the Holy Father added.

"This obliges you to faithfully safeguard, live and transmit the gifts you received from the Lord through him," he said.

The Pope proposed to the Legionaries the task "of developing the work inspired in the Founder. The Institute attempts to distinguish itself by selfless service to the Church and in forming youth in solid human and Christian principles which, based on personal freedom and responsibility, in fidelity to the Magisterium and in full communion with the Pope, contribute to their spiritual, social and cultural maturity." .........[/quote]

There is also a video, [url="http://www.legrc.org/regnum_db/phpAds/click.php3?bannerID=686"]In the Heart of the Pope[/url]

Since Benedict XVI is still in the beginning of his papacy, there's not as much about him and the Legionaries/Regnum Christi. That doesn't mean anything negative though.

I'm curious, what is the source that says there is an investigation regarding Fr. Maciel? The only legitimate sources I have seen have all been disproving such rumors...

[ruso]

Not as the one of Fr. Marcial Maciel goes, I have not said anything.

Nevertheless if of others in march:



US SEMINARY INVESTIGATION



Readers of the board should know that the Apostolic Visitation of Catholic seminaries and houses of priestly formation has been going on in the northeast US. So far, in the experience of those who have given testimony, it has proven to be a serious and substantial investigation of seminary life, taking up not only sexual, but also academic and spiritual
impropriety.

It is said that at first the Legion claimed exemption from investigation for its institutions and then deflected attention from Cheshire by claiming it is a high school, though they have been seeking state accreditation for it as a junior college. One also hears that Thornwood will be reviewed. I don¹t know whether these rumors are true or false.

What is certain is that here is a real opportunity for anyone who spent time at Thornwood or Cheshire to be heard on things they had issues with. The investigators have promulgated a list of questions to be responded to in interviews and in writing and they cover many of the areas that have been aired on this board, such as confusions of internal and external fora (confessors/spiritual directors distinct from superiors), weak academic standards, and idiosyncratic spirituality.

I would urge anyone who wishes to share their knowledge of these matters at Thornwood and Cheshire to write, even unasked, to the investigation in care of Archbishop Edwin O¹Brien, Coordinator for the Apostolic Visitation. His
address is

Most Rev. Edwin F. O'Brien
Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA
Post Office Box 4469
Washington DC 20017-0469



The Visitation's statement of procedure and investigative interests is called the 'instrumentum laboris' and can be seen at:

[url="http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/churchdocs/InstrumentumLaboris_Seminaries.htm"]http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resou..._Seminaries.htm[/url]

Just to show what some of the issues are, some of the Visitation¹s questions that relate specifically to issues raised on this board include:

6. (6) How does the seminary safeguard the clear distinction between internal forum and external forum? Are all due precautions taken to protect the inviolability of the internal forum? (7) Does the seminary have both ordinary and extraordinary confessors? How often are there opportunities for confession?

7. (1) Are all philosophical/theological tracts adequately taught, both as regards the time dedicated to them and in the scope of material covered? Do you notice any lacunae in the program of studies? (2) Are the seminarians capable of dialoguing, on the intellectual level, with contemporary society? Do their studies help them to respond to contemporary subjectivism and, in particular, to moral relativism? (This question must be answered.)

8. (1) Is pastoral theology taught? By whom? (6) Does the institution teach a proper understanding of the role of women in ecclesial life? Do they understand the proper models of clergy-lay cooperation?

11. Other Concerns. The Visitors will indicate to the Holy See any other concerns that they may have about the formation program of the seminary.

These questions are being taken very seriously by the investigators and could prove invaluable in focusing attention on any deviation from Church teaching regarding seminary formation.

[ruso]

[quote name='morostheos' date='Jan 15 2006, 02:43 AM']Here's an article about John Paul II encouraging the Legionaries of Christ:
[url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=65639"]Pope Encourages Legionaries in Living Their Founder's Charism[/url]
There is also a video, [url="http://www.legrc.org/regnum_db/phpAds/click.php3?bannerID=686"]In the Heart of the Pope[/url]

Since Benedict XVI is still in the beginning of his papacy, there's not as much about him and the Legionaries/Regnum Christi.  That doesn't mean anything negative though.

I'm curious, what is the source that says there is an investigation regarding Fr. Maciel?  The only legitimate sources I have seen have all been disproving such rumors...
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[/quote]

National Catholic Reporter

Issue Date: June 3, 2005

Legion eager to get past founder's sex abuse charges
By JASON BERRY

The Vatican’s announcement May 20 that Legionaries of Christ founder Fr. Marcial Maciel Degollado will face no canonical trial for numerous accusations of sexually abusing seminarians put a spotlight on the new papacy of Benedict XVI, raising questions and drawing harsh criticism from victims.

In many circles, the announcement, widely distributed by the Legionaries, was seen as the Vatican’s way of saying “case closed” on the questions surrounding Maciel and the accusations of sexual abuse first made public by a group of former seminarians and, in recent months, by a growing number of other alleged victims.

Four days after that initial announcement, however, NCR learned that the original statement on the matter was issued not by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which has jurisdiction over priest sex abuse cases, but by the Vatican Secretariat of State, which is run by Italian Cardinal Angelo Sodano, a vocal supporter of the Legionaries and a longtime friend of Maciel.

Whether that fact makes any difference in the eventual disposition of the case against Maciel is unclear. The revelation, however, at least clouds the picture and hints at potentially differing agendas within the church’s highest bureaucracy. For while the Secretariat of State said that there is no canonical proceeding, nor is one expected in the future, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, at least until recently, was engaged in an extensive investigation that was characterized as preliminary to any canonical action.

A complicated tale

The complicated tale of pronouncements began May 21 when Fr. Ciro Benedittini, a spokesman in the Vatican press office, told The New York Times: “There is no investigation now, and it is not foreseeable that there will be another investigation in the future.” Benedittini’s announcement confirmed a Catholic News Service story of the day before, published in response to a Legion statement. Jay Dunlap, communications director for the Legionaries in North America, told The New York Times that the Holy See’s announcement “sounds like” an exoneration of Maciel.

The announcement that church legal proceedings would not go forward apparently foreclosed a major investigation underway by a representative of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican agency most recently headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was elected Pope Benedict XVI in April.

“This transparent whitewash aborts the church’s legal system to the benefit” of Maciel and to “the harm of brave, persistent victims,” David Clohessy, director of Survivors Network for those Abused by Priests (SNAP), said in a statement released May 22.

According to observers in Rome, the publication of a lengthy May 20 report on the Maciel case by Italian journalist Sandro Magister, headlined “A trial against Fr. Maciel is drawing ever more near,” may have prompted the declaration, presumed by most to have come from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and addressed to the general headquarters of the Legionaries in Rome. Typically, the doctrinal congregation does not comment on whether it is investigating someone.

The fact that Msgr. Charles Scicluna was investigating Maciel had been widely reported.

Even if the announcement by the Secretariat of State proves correct, what remains unclear is whether the decision reflects a finding within the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that the charges against Maciel are unconvincing -- or whether, holding aside the evidence Scicluna obtained, the decision was made not to prosecute because Maciel is 85 and recently resigned as the order’s superior. Speaking at the time of Maciel’s resignation last January, one senior Vatican official predicted that those factors would “weigh significantly” in an eventual decision.

Congregation remains mum

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the agency responsible for judging such cases, has remained mum on the case and refused to comment on the recent confusion about the Vatican and Legionaries announcements.

By failing to clarify what the investigation by Scicluna, the promoter of justice at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, had found, the Vatican statement left significant questions unanswered. In recent weeks, Scicluna interviewed at least 32 people in America and Mexico about Maciel, telling them it was for a report to the pope.

The pope can halt or intervene in any canonical case. If the case was halted:

Why did Benedict XVI decide against an ecclesiastical trial?
Will the Holy See affirm Maciel’s innocence, something it has not done since the sex abuse allegations by nine former Legionaries were first reported in 1997 by the Hartford (Conn.) Courant?
If not, how does the Vatican explain the allegations?
Will the congregation destroy its investigative findings, as canon law allows when an authority declines to prosecute a canonical case?
Was Scicluna allowed to finish the report?
Has Benedict XVI read it?
The announcement jolted those who filed the 1998 canonical case against Maciel at the Vatican. “We must be exonerated of the accusations against us by the Legionaries,” José Barba, a professor at the Instituo Tecnologico Autonimo Mexico, told NCR by telephone from Mexico City. “We are the victims and we have been telling the truth. If the Holy See does not make a declaration of the truth, we stand in limbo. Is that justice?”

Since the 1997 Courant report on the allegations by seven Mexicans and two Spaniards, the Legion’s public statements and Web site have accused Barba, a historian with a doctorate from Harvard, and the eight others of a conspiracy to damage Maciel’s reputation. Maciel, who has denied the charges in issued statements, has remained unavailable to the media since 1997.

Although the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has a history of singling out theologians for punishment, no high church official has been publicly punished by the Vatican for sexual crimes under canon law.

Maciel lives in Rome at the Legion headquarters, though in late April he was reportedly in Cotija, his birthplace in Mexico. Vatican sources told NCR May 25 that Maciel was in Mexico making pastoral visits to Legion facilities and was expected to return to Rome.

In 1998, Archbishop Augusto Mullor, the papal nuncio in Mexico, told Barba, “The church has tribunals of her own,” encouraging him to file a canonical grievance against Maciel. Msgr. Antonio Roqueni, a leading canonist in Mexico City, and Martha Wegan, a canonist licensed to practice at the Vatican, worked on the complaint filed with the congregation that accused Maciel of giving absolution in confession to his victims, a moral crime that has no statute of limitations under canon law.

Barba called Wegan, the canonist in Rome, after the Vatican announcement that Maciel would not be prosecuted. “She had received no word” from the congregation about the announcement, he told NCR.

When he was congregation prefect, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger halted proceedings at Christmas 1999, later telling a Mexican bishop that it was “delicate” because of Maciel’s record in attracting young men to the priesthood. Maciel and the Legionaries enjoyed lavish praise from Pope John Paul II, who never acknowledged the allegations. Late last year, Ratzinger ordered the case to proceed (NCR, Jan. 7) -- in fact, resurrecting it -- and dispatched Scicluna to investigate.

On April 2 in New York, Scicluna interviewed Juan Vaca. Vaca had made the first canonical protest of Maciel to Rome in 1976, as a priest who had left the Legion for the Rockville Centre, N.Y., diocese. With his bishop’s support Vaca sent a list of 20 men identified as victims to the Vatican. The dossier included a statement from a second ex-Legionary, Fr. Félix Alarcón, affirming that he too was a victim of Maciel. The Vatican did nothing then, nor in 1978 nor 1989 when Vaca sought action against Maciel. Vaca left the priesthood and married.

“Scicluna told me, ‘We owe you guys an apology. The church did not protect you,’ ” Vaca told NCR after the news broke from Rome.

“I am outraged,” Vaca said. “We are being re-abused.”

On April 3, with television riveted on the solemn beauty of the events surrounding John Paul’s death, Scicluna was off to Mexico City.

There, over the next week, 30 witnesses went to Casa de Santa Brigida, a three-story convent in a nondescript building at 57 Avenido Uno. The Vatican canonist asked them to swear on a rosary that their testimony was truthful; witnesses also signed formal documents under seal by the Holy See. A Mexican, Fr. Pedro Miguel Funes Díaz, sat by Scicluna, typing on a laptop, notarizing the testimonies with signatures and an official Vatican stamp.

Scicluna refused to comment on any aspect of the investigation.

The Vatican removed Maciel from his position in 1956 during a period when, according to Barba and others, he was addicted to a morphine drug known as dolantine. These events are omitted from the Legionaries’ official history. Maciel was reinstated in early 1959.

The men who brought the 1998 canonical case said they were intimidated into lying to the Vatican investigators in the 1950s. The Legion claims Maciel was innocent and that the 1998 charges were long since disproven.

Three new witnesses

In April, however, the radius of accusations widened in Mexico, as men who had not gone public before testified to Scicluna. La Jornada, a Mexican daily, identified three new witnesses, including Carlos de Isla, a professor of philosophy in his 70s, who was one of the first 12 youths to join Maciel’s fledgling order in 1941, but soon left. The content of his testimony is not known. Two other men not party to the 1998 case testified about Maciel’s abuses, Salvador Andrade and Francisco González Parga. “The latter admitted, according to those present at the meeting, that after being the object of Maciel’s abuse, he began to use drugs and that his superiors, upon realizing this, neither said nor did anything,” the newspaper reported.

“Twenty people gave direct testimony that they were abused,” Barba told NCR.

The news from Rome left bitter feelings in Mexico.

“We gave a vote of confidence to this pope,” Barba told NCR. “We were asked to sign a paper of the Holy See saying we would not disclose our written testimonies, which we signed. … We presented new witnesses to Scicluna that prove Maciel was doing the same things” after 1959.

One of those testifying was José Antonio Pérez Olvera, an attorney whose brother also left the Legion after being pursued by Maciel, according to a story by Alma E. Muñoz of La Jornada.

Another witness was Alejandro Espinosa, author of El Legionario, a memoir of alleged sexual encounters with Maciel that has sold 20,000 copies in Mexico. Espinosa left the Legion in the early 1960s and was one of the first to accuse Maciel. Espinosa told NCR on May 2 that Scicluna assured him he had a strong case against Maciel. Espinosa and others have long maintained that Maciel was cleared by the Vatican in 1958 because the young seminarians had taken a vow never to speak ill of Maciel and to report such statements to their superiors.

“I was told by Maciel not to tell the truth,” said Espinosa, a trim, forceful man with wavy silver hair. “I didn’t know whether to be obedient to my superiors or the Vatican. … I was trembling when I talked to them [in 1958] because I knew I was lying. I swore on a Bible.”

Maciel, who turned 85 in March, has lived for many years at the Legion headquarters in Rome. He has had his tomb constructed at Our Lady of Guadalupe Church in Rome, which he built in the 1950s, demonstrating early prowess as a fundraiser. Maciel’s picture hangs in Legion schools in several countries, where students -- like Legion seminarians -- have long been taught that he is a living saint.

Maciel enjoyed remarkable support from Pope John Paul II, which gave the Legionaries a base of support in attacking the charges, even after Scicluna was given a green light to gather information.

“This investigation will be an atomic bomb for the Legionaries,” Msgr. Roqueni, a canonist who gave testimony to Scicluna, predicted in a May 4 interview with NCR in Mexico City. Referring to the order’s history of cultivating bishops and cardinals, Roqueni said: “Scicluna is more interested in the Legionaries. He told me, ‘They are corrupt.’ ”

Just how far Scicluna, also a canonist, was able to follow his leads is unclear because the native of Malta works under a pontifical vow of secrecy, as do all staffers at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Substantial information has been published by the author of a Spanish book, among other books that were provided to Scicluna as secondary source material. Los documentos secretos de los Legionarios de Cristo (“The secret documents of the Legionaries of Christ”), published last fall in Madrid by religion reporter José Martínez de Velasco, quotes extracts from internal files the author obtained from disaffected Legionary priests in Spain and Ireland. Several of those priests were reportedly prepared to give testimony. The book is published by Ediciones B of Barcelona, one of Spain’s most prestigious publishing houses.

One chapter focuses on events at Regina Apostolarum, the Legion’s academic complex in Rome. Cardinals and bishops are in demand for its conferences and receptions. Who among them knew their comments were being written down by seminarians as internal reports for the order? Martínez de Velasco quotes from the documents that seminarians wrote, quoting prominent guests, including Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, prefect of the Congregation for Clergy at the Vatican.

The petty, backbiting memos as quoted offer little important information about Castrillón Hoyos or the bishops identified. But the account shows the order assigned seminarians to cater to illustrious guests only to spy on them and write accounts of what the visitors say for internal files. The author suggests that this practice extends the mentality created by the special vow, never to speak illof Maciel and to report on anyone who does.

Investigation’s impact

Scicluna left Mexico April 12, before Ratzinger was elected pope. He had enough secondary material to fill a trunk: eight books in Spanish, stacks of articles and documentaries that mostly portray Maciel as a predatory figure whose pathological behavior is defended by an entrenched culture of disinformation.

The dossier of materials Barba provided for Scicluna included the first book published about Maciel: La prodigiosa aventura de los Legionarios de Cristo (“The prodigious adventure of the Legionaries of Christ,” 2001)by Alfonso Torres Robles, a pioneering Spanish journalist who has a sequel forthcoming. Another book by José Martínez de Velasco, published in 2002, is titled Los Legionarios de Cristo, el nuevo ejército del Papa (“The Legionaries of Christ, the pope’s new army”).

“When I showed Scicluna the books, he said, ‘All this?’ ” said Barba. “And I said, ‘Yes, Monsignor, all this.’ ”

The books included El circulo del poder y la espiral del silencio (“The circle of power and the spiral of silence”), a collection of essays by several prominent religious sociologists, with a lead article by Fernando González, a psychoanalyst with a doctorate in Sociology from the Sorbonne. El nombre del Padre: Depredadores sexuales en la Iglesia (“The name of the father: Sexual predators in the church”) by Carlos Fazio, a sociologist and prominent writer, examines Maciel in the context of global abuse scandals. Votas de silencio is the Spanish translation of Vows of Silence by this reporter and Gerald Renner.

In the last several years, as the Mexican media provided forums to authors, contributors and journalists on their findings, Maciel refused to respond, relying on Legion officials to reiterate his defense. Against this background, Scicluna’s visit emboldened the Mexican media.

“Father Maciel Has Been Defeated”read a May 3 headline in the daily Milenio by columnist Ciro Gómez Leyva, one of the country’s leading journalists and host of a cable news show. “It is the end for Fr. Maciel,” he wrote.

Aside from whatever conclusion the prosecutor might reach, the Holy See and Pope Benedict XVI have reason to question Maciel’s responsibility in these sexual assaults against seminarians, almost children really, in the seminaries of the Legion of Christ. … As with Pinochet in Chile the final verdict will be secondary to the high points of the life of Marcial Maciel. The Vatican seems to have understood and accepted that the accusers bring together enough elements of verisimilitude, trustworthiness and credibility that it is imperative that attention be paid to them.

Such words were unthinkable a few years ago. Graduates of Legion schools and Northern Anahuac University in Mexico City, its flagship university, occupy considerable power in Mexican business, society and politics. Gómez Leyva learned that the hard way in 1997, after a documentary in which he and Marisa Iglesias profiled Maciel’s accusers: An advertisers’ boycott nearly killed the channel.

Early this month, the documentary, updated, aired in prime time.

“I showed Msgr. Scicluna two documentaries, and he took notes,” Barba told NCR.

The comparison of Maciel and Pinochet has an ironic parallel with Cardinal Angelo Sodana, the Vatican secretary of state and Maciel’s strongest supporter within the Roman curia. Sodano was papal nuncio in Chile during the Pinochet years, when the dictatorship welcomed Maciel and the Legionaries.

Roberta Garza, another Milenio columnist, writes from the industrial capital of Monterey, Mexico. Garza’s comments have special resonance as one of her brothers, Luis Garza, is the second-highest Legionary priest in Rome, under Alvaro Corcuera Martínez del Rio, a 47-year-old Mexican, who is the order’s new director general. (Maciel retired in December, citing reasons of age, as news broke of Scicluna’s probe.) “The problem with setting up these artificial altars is that, as with all divinities, they exact tribute,” Roberta Garza wrote of Maciel on May 8.

Avoiding U.S. media

Maciel avoided the U.S. media long before he was accused in 1997. That is why he is barely known to most U.S. Catholics. That anonymity was a calculated strategy at the Legion’s Orange, Conn., headquarters well before my colleague, Gerald Renner, did the first reports in the Hartford Courant of two young men escaping from the Legion seminary, complaining of psychological coercion, and of what some termed the Legion’s shadowy fundraising tactics.

Maciel made orchestrated appearances for fundraisers and events for Regnum Christi, the order’s lay arm that helps raise money. Because he does not speak English, a Legion priest was always there to translate. Maciel’s commercial value lay in his elite mystique -- a courageous anticommunist, a confidante of the pope. To subject “Nuestro Padre” -- Our Father, as he is known within the order and Regnum Christi -- to any press scrutiny risked puncturing the façade of “a living saint,” his heroic persona in the Legion’s literature.

As the books by various authors point out, the history of the order’s founding is riddled with factual errors and historical inconsistencies, designed to promote Maciel’s cult of personality.

At conferences and fundraisers Maciel told the story of seeing priest’s bodies hanged in his hometown during the anticlerical persecutions in the 1930s, after the Mexican Revolution. That may be true; but other events, such as his heroic leading of Catholic protests in Veracruz, Mexico, in 1937, as a teenager, against an anticlerical government, are preposterous on their face and lack historical proof. Maciel’s persona succeeded in attracting orthodox followers and raising huge sums from those with wealth. He appealed to those recoiling from cultural changes in a post-Vatican II church. Photographs of Maciel and John Paul fed the apparatus linked to fundraising: a Web site, the weekly National Catholic Register, and a news service in Rome, Zenit.

The Legion did what no other order does: sent seminarians out with priests to seek funds from donors. Maciel became the most successful fundraiser of the late-20th-century church, fueling a $60 million budget for an order with about 600 priests -- if Legion figures are to believed -- and only 2,500 seminarians. The Vatican budget is $260 million.

The Legion’s strategy hinged on promoting Maciel as a living saint; the order marketed itself as “re-evangelizing” the church. A strategy of “capturing followers” permeated the movement, as Regnum Christi is called, and collided with a post-Vatican II model of pluralism in parish life. That is why Archbishop Harry Flynn of St. Paul-Minneapolis, Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles and several other prelates prohibit the Legion from functioning in their dioceses. Flynn accused them of promoting “a separate church.”

During the past few years Maciel has canceled his spectacular appearances at the Legionaries’ annual family day festivals in the United States. In 2003 Maciel was scheduled to address thousands gathered in Chicago. When he failed to arrive and event organizers played a videotaped address from the Legion founder, a reporter speculated in the Chicago Tribune that Maciel had failed to appear because he feared American abuse-victim groups would protest his presence.

The official Legion explanation was this: Maciel had been on some important pastoral visit to South America. From there, he was scheduled to fly to Chicago. However, said Legion spokesman Dunlap, Maciel was diverted by a sudden request from an unnamed cardinal to return to Rome on urgent business.

The Web site Legionaryfacts.org, and such American Catholics as Fr. Richard John Neuhaus and Harvard Law Professor Mary Ann Glendon (who also teaches at the Legion seminary in Rome) have long derided the allegations. Neuhaus has called them “malicious.”

A problem for Maciel’s defenders -- and this papacy -- is that the genie is out of the bottle: The Vatican itself decided to begin an investigation. Thirty-two people gave detailed testimony.

Jason Berry.

[morostheos]

Please don't cite articles from the National Catholic Reporter, they are not a reliable source. Remember, this is the same publications who's headline after the Instruction regarding homosexuals in the seminary was "For What It's Worth, Our Condolences." They breed suspicion and disunity within the Catholic Church.

[ruso]

[quote name='morostheos' date='Jan 15 2006, 07:23 AM']Please don't cite articles from the National Catholic Reporter, they are not a reliable source.  Remember, this is the same publications who's headline after the Instruction regarding homosexuals in the seminary was "For What It's Worth, Our Condolences."  They breed suspicion and disunity within the Catholic Church.
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It is I articulate but detailed that I know on the case, and until now that it is certain, if it had found some lie not it post.
you have asked the details of the investigation, although you do not like the source this is not rumors.
The single investigation finished when it says the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

[Vivacristorey]

[quote name='ruso' date='Jan 15 2006, 08:32 AM']It is I articulate but detailed that I know on the case, and until now that it is certain, if it had found some lie not it post.
you have asked the details of the investigation, although you do not like the source this is not rumors.
The single investigation finished when it says the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
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I strongly reccomend www.legionaryfacts.org, official legionary answers to negative reports.

I still fail to understand why other Catholics continually attack us. When has our movement ever stood outside of Charity? When have we offended the Holy Catholic Church? When have we ever done anything to offend the Vatican's laws?

Christ gives us a mission in life, and just because not everyone's mission is to Regnum Christi does not mean that others should bash it. Just because someone is a member of other movements does not lead me to bash them! I thank God for them! Why cant others do the same if this movement is bringing me closer to Christ? Why do other Catholics not want me to find my faith in Christ, my best friend and my loving Father? Its almost as if they don't want me to find my faith. If they could only grasp what this movement has done for me!

Christ told us this would happen, however. (John 15:20) We should have seen it coming I guess. The devil never rests.

~*sarah*~

[peacenluvbaby]

Hello again, Vivacristorey,

Peace to you again! I totally forgive you! I can even see that your reaction was kind of normal since you are part of ecyd, and also a teenager. As a teen I might react more angrily than now - but that lack of clearheadedness actually helps my point that teenagers shouldn't make life choices in high school. Especially in an environment that itself is extraordinarily conducive (if not pressuring) for the decision to be "yes I join."

One thing about your article - It is a well known fact that Zenit is operated by the Legionaries, so it is somewhat questionable to claim it as a source of unbiased information about them.

Secondly, you state the the RC/Legion is the most under attack of all Movements. Actually, the other day, Pope Benedict severely sanctioned another of your "fellow" movements, the NeoCatechumenates because of Liturgical irregularities in their practice.

Thirdly, you keep saying that I have "accused" which I have not done! I simply stated my experience and some facts - namely that an investigation is ongoing, and that I don't think it is appropriate for minors to live the life of a consecrated person - strict norms and policies of obedience to these norms - when they, as minors, are not sufficiently mature nor legally endowed with the right to make life decisions such as marriage.

[color=red]Question - would your parents allow you to seriously date, with the intention of marriage, in High School? [/color]

Probably not.

YET, THIS IS WHAT the precandidacy says is its purpose for existence. A period of discernment - serious dating if you will - to see if you are to be consecrated - married - at the end of senior year. I just see this as premature for young girls to be making life decisions with hormones raging. Even the name "precandidate" suggests discernment, and a serious commitment which I think is very much premature for girls in high school.

As far as "Fr. Maciel" - I have not accused him, I only pointed out that this pope, Benedict, has re-opened the case against him. If he is innocent, then I think he and everyone would agree that the investigation will prove it! (Think of Cardinal Bernadin, who was accused and shown to be innocent) But I dont think we should hide from information that is uncomfortable.

I hope my position is clear. I am not trying to be a Hater!!!! I'm just giving some TRUE, VALID INFO about my experience and current events surrounding the Legion, and specifically the RI "Precandidacy"

Love you all!

[Vivacristorey]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:38 AM']Hello again, Vivacristorey,

Peace to you again! I totally forgive you!  I can even see that your reaction was kind of normal since you are part of ecyd, and also a teenager.  As a teen I might react more angrily than now - but that lack of clearheadedness actually helps my point that teenagers shouldn't make life choices in high school.  Especially in an environment that itself is extraordinarily conducive (if not pressuring) for the decision to be "yes I join."

One thing about your article - It is a well known fact that Zenit is operated by the Legionaries, so it is somewhat questionable to claim it as a source of unbiased information about them. 

Secondly, you state the the RC/Legion is the most under attack of all Movements.  Actually, the other day, Pope Benedict severely sanctioned another of your "fellow" movements, the NeoCatechumenates because of Liturgical irregularities in their practice.

Thirdly, you keep saying that I have "accused"  which I have not done!  I simply stated my experience and some facts - namely that an investigation is ongoing, and that I don't think it is appropriate for minors to live the life of a consecrated person - strict norms and policies of obedience to these norms - when they, as minors, are not sufficiently mature nor legally endowed with the right to make life decisions such as marriage.

[color=red]Question - would your parents allow you to seriously date, with the intention of marriage, in High School? [/color]

Probably not.

YET, THIS IS WHAT the precandidacy says is its purpose for existence.  A period of discernment - serious dating if you will - to see if you are to be consecrated - married - at the end of senior year.  I just see this as premature for young girls to be making life decisions with hormones raging.  Even the name "precandidate" suggests discernment, and a serious commitment which I think is very much premature for  girls in high school.

  As far as "Fr. Maciel" - I have not accused him, I only pointed out that this pope, Benedict,  has re-opened the case against him.  If he is innocent, then I think he and everyone would agree that the investigation will prove it! (Think of Cardinal Bernadin, who was accused and shown to be innocent)  But I dont think we should hide from information that is uncomfortable.

I hope my position is clear.  I am not trying to be a Hater!!!!  I'm just giving some TRUE, VALID INFO about my experience and current events surrounding the Legion, and specifically the RI "Precandidacy"

Love you all!   
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I'm sorry, but I cannot accept from you any "accusations" which is really exactly what they are. God calls at different points in a person's life. He does not have a systematic calling. He does not say, "Every person is called after they are eighteen years of age !" No! He called St. Therese of Liseuix when she was VERY young, and you cannot possibly say that her calling was not genuine.

Maybe YOU didnt' have a good experience at the precandidacy, and maybe YOU weren't mature enough (and there's nothing wrong with that) but every precandidate I've ever seen is amazingly radiantly happy, a happiness no one can say is false. Christ radiates off their faces, and they think they're the most blessed people in the world for being able to go to that school : I will ask for the final time that you do not spread lies and rumors anymore. Just because you may have not been called to this vocation does not mean no one is and that it is evil. Just because YOU didnt have a great experience doesnt mean NO ONE will. Your words are hurtful, whether or not you intend them to be, to those of us who love the movement with all our hearts. Your words are insulting when you say that the precandidacy is not a good thing for those of us who have relatives and friends who have been there or are planning to go there ourselves.

Sometimes Christ calls in the strangest of times, such as the years we have, to use your phrase, "raging hormones" and are a little unstable. One of the newly consecrated said herself she did not go to the precandidacy for the right reasons, but nevertheless it was God's call and she's more happy and joyous than she's ever been in her life. and incidentally, I completelyl believe her. You can't give a smile like that and not be truly happy.

I will simply ask you to stop posting on this thread if you do not want to say anything kind about something the Vatican has approved. I am young, yes, and I have "raging hormones" but that does not in any case mean that my opinions dont matter, or that I dont know as much about my beloved Movement in Mother Church as you do. Did Christ himself not say, "Let the children come to me... Unless you become like these you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." ? Yes, teenagers make mistakes but God loves us and reveals to us some things he doesnt reveal to adults.

I believe the greatest reason I love the movement so much is because of its influence on my faith. Also for the same reason I'm Catholic. I have faith. : I cant see everything, but I believe it because I have faith. I have faith that there are no lies in Nuestro Padre's eyes, and that what they've taught me is true. Christ gave me this movement as a gift. Please dont tell me the gift my best friend has given me is evil, because I will simply disregard what you say.

Im sorry, once again, for any harsh words I have posted here, but remember that Christ was not always gentle. Sometimes he was blunt and others took his remarks as insults. Please take them as what I know for a fact is true through countless hours of adoration on this exact topic we discuss, and remember that I love you all very much and I only want you to know the truth.

Someday, I know, you'll know this is truth.

Please dont categorize teenagers like the mass media does: hormonal, overdramatic, shallow, and insecure. We are more than the world tells us. We are children of God.

[Vivacristorey]

I forgive you for your harsh words as well. Your insults are now behind me, and I will forget them. Let us (forgive me for this quote) do as Nuestro Padre says and "Begin again"

[Vivacristorey]

I completely agree with you about the "dating" Christ thing for highschool in that, if it were any other normal, "hormonal", morally imperfect guy, my parents wouldn't even listen to my case.
But this guy's got no faults, will never hurt me, will never let me down, and has loved me since before I existed. He gives me the flowers every morning and the moon every night. He spells my name in the stars and artistically sculps the clouds so that I can find shapes out of them at my leisure. He never leaves my side, he has a GREAT relationship with my parents, and has asked if I can please go to his school. After all that (did I mention he died for me after I sin against him again and again?), how could I refuse his gentle calling "Follow me." ?

[ruso]

Hello Sarah.


You begin recommending directions, I recommend this
[url="http://www.exlegionaries.com/"]http://www.exlegionaries.com/[/url]. They are men and women who have left the RC.
Everything sees very pretty when you are young, when you think that your way this indicated and when generously you decide to give your life to an ideal.
I dont say nothing if you wanted to enter a traditional order, because they do not accept to you if you do not have vocation, and if they see that you have welcome.
But the RC, almost all the people who make the discernment have vocation, that chance, no?.
What they try is to catch the greater amount of possible people, to a very early age.
I also joint with 16 years in another one organization, the disappointment was brutal. You thought, this not happened with me and nevertheless the life gives many returns.
I continue saying that the RC catches youngs skipping the teaching of the church, some congregations have raised the age until the 21 years
in order to make sure the maturity its members.
You speak of St. Therese of Liseuix , a only case by its circumstances,
I doubt much that your parents nor nobody let to you enter in a carmelit monasterie with 14 years, they think that you go to one high school to follow your education.
You take yourself the criticize to the RC like something yours, and I do not have anything against you, while the RC preaches a charity, that they has never had with his exmembers, they treat them as if never they had existed, in spite of taking 3.5.10 and up to 30 years of delivery. The case of TricksterB is first exception that I know.
when other congregations help them and they are interested for who leave.
At this point you thought that I am the devil hindering your vocation, in the OD when tapeworm doubts say to me the same
When joints with the RC say this to your parents:
1º I am going to see to you at the most twice the year, that if me they
authorize it.
2º You are going to happen to a second place, now I have another family.
3º I will go to the ceremonies of the family (Marriages, baptisms, 1ª
comunnion), whenever me they autorizen it, perhasp accompanied of other member of RC, but I will not have left to the celebration.
4º I will never study in the university, the RC does not give importance to the studies of the consecrated womens.
5º When the disease or the oldness comes, it will visit to you if me they authorize it, but will not take care of you, my apostolates are more important, it is just as others like sisters or nuns if they do it.

[Vivacristorey]

all i know is that because of Regnum Christi I have found Christ. I may not be the most educated of all people (actually, I know perfectly well that i am not) but anything that brings me closer to Christ I honor and cherish. It is because of Regnum Christi that i have Christ.

I am not going to analyze each of its parts (by the way, for official answers to accusations posted by the website you mentioned, see www.legionaryfacts.org) and I am not going to tell you every one of its ways of bringing people closer to Christ, but I am going to tell you that it gave me the greatest joy of my life, the greatest peace that I could love Christ as my best friend. I did not get this from any other group or any parish group, this knowledge that Christ loves me so much he will always listen, he will always be there, that he is my closest friend and my greatest comfort. That he will carry me through life and let me rest in his loving arms. No one else has yet helped me to live out my faith besides Regnum Christi. It is only THROUGH Regnum Christi that I can go to Sunday Mass at my parish and really live it to its fullest.

I deeply regret that many people think that I'm just an ignorant little girl who doesnt understand that this great big evil paralell chuch is trying to recruit her, and that they feel "sorry" for me. i feel sorry for them. they just dont get it. they just dont understand.
I understand COMPLETLEY what i've "gotten into" by joining ECYD. I've "gotten into" the greatest relationship with Christ I've ever had, and NO ONE can take that away from me.

please stop posting here if you are going to spread rumors about the movement that gave me Christ and hope in the Church.
I'm sorry, but I cannot allow you to post negatively about it. period. End of discussion. no comprimise.

Peace to all. Im sure one day you'll understand.
~*sarah*~

[Marieteresa]

Umm, I don't want to poke my head in here and say anything but I am not aware that anyone can tell someone else to stop posting their views. I mean everyone is entitled to their views....The good, the bad the ugly.

I just wanted to say welcome to PM

[prolifenovelist]

welcome to the thread, marieteresa!
i just meant that everything I've said so far has been torn down with lies by others on this thread... if this movement has given me Christ, I dont see any problem with it.
perhaps you could tell us your views on Regnum Christi?
~*sarah*~

[prolifenovelist]

sorry... im on my friend's phatmass name and i didnt realize.. this is vivacristorey... sorry sorry sorry folks

[Marieteresa]

Personally I know very little about RC or the LC and I am just beginning to learn about both organizations. I am just wonder how did you learn about RC and what made you decide to join them. I am guessing I asking about a vocation story here.

In JMJ

[morostheos]

I would also like to second vivachristorey's experiences with Regnum Christi. (and just for the record, i'm 23) I joined Regnum Christi almost two years ago, and I have to say no other singular group in my life has had a more positive impact on my spiritual life and intimacy with Christ. Before joining I read all the websites that are out there, and talked with several people who had had negative experiences with Regnum Christi, and I still discerned that Christ was calling me to Regnum Christi. Having seen from both sides of the fence, I can assure you that any eagerness to increase membership in Regnum Christi and the Legion is out of charity, it is wanting to share with others the treasure we have found. Regnum Christi has given me what I was longing for, the concrete means to progress in my spiritual life and grow closer to Christ day by day.

[ruso]

For a catholic that practices it is very attractive in the beginning, formed priests, devotee people. Once introduced they convince to you that these in the best site. The normal people of RC it thinks . They request to you and even demand that only go to its means of formation, confession only with legionary priests ect.......
Without hardly contact with other catholics groups, this can get to create a parallel church, for that reason and other reasons have been banned from several dioceses.
[url="http://www.regainnetwork.org/article.php?a=47245877"]http://www.regainnetwork.org/article.php?a=47245877[/url]

[prolifenovelist]

in your admirable haste to defend the Holy Catholic Church from harmful cults and devisions, ruso, I'm afraid you have become a bit biased against Regnum Christi. Why not look at the website and and other sites in FAVOR of it and then compare what you've found?
Morostheos has expressed very clearly what I believe as well... all attempts at "recruitment" are to share what we've found. if you find Regnum Christi is not for you, then congratulations for discerning God's will for you!
I would also like to clear up what you've said, ruso. all legionary priests i've met have encouraged regnum christi members to get involved in their parishes and talk with their parish priests regularly. They encourage us to look to the parish for many things, such as some parts of formation (life teen, rcia, etc) as well as for the sacraments and Mass. Nothing anti-parish has been said that I have heard of, and if you have heard anything specifically a Legionary has said saying "Do not go to your parish. Come to me. Legionaries are the only ones with truth. Forget the Church! Who needs it!" then please tell me and I will leave Regnum Christi immediately. I'm afraid, however, you will be wasting your time searching, because no such comment has (i believe) ever been made.

~*vivacristorey on friend's computer*~

Edited January 17, 2006 by prolifenovelist