The Impeachment of George W. Bush

[Laudate_Dominum]

I guess this isn't Star Trek, the pres could just say that instances of human rights violations were just the acts of bad military dudes, not his policy or anything. Of course in Star Trek Kirk would always take responsibility for bad things that people under his command did. I always thought that was freakin noble.

I don't know if I can discuss it seriously, but I have heard stuff suggestive of some weird activity in Iraq that goes against human rights.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jan 13 2006, 11:21 AM']I guess this isn't Star Trek, the pres could just say that instances of human rights violations were just the acts of bad military dudes, not his policy or anything. Of course in Star Trek Kirk would always take responsibility for bad things that people under his command did. I always thought that was freakin noble.

I don't know if I can discuss it seriously, but I have heard stuff suggestive of some weird activity in Iraq that goes against human rights.
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[/quote]I understand. You are good at keeping things light and I enjoy that.

The reaons that I prompted this was not to smear Bush but to ascertain what is truth. A leader cannot take responsibility for every individual's action, but while one may be able to delegate authority, one cannot delegate responsibility. Ultimatley this did happen under his administration albeit it may have been individuals rather than policy. On that note, however, I have heard that Cheney did condone the use of torutre.

Is this grounds for impeachment? I do not think so unless Bush personally ordered the torture of detainees. Even then I think that is very remote. The posted article is indeed way out in left field (no pun intended). On the other hand, it could have been an adminstrative oversight, but in that case it was still a mistake.

Edited January 13, 2006 by Paphnutius

[argent_paladin]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Jan 13 2006, 06:38 AM']Sooooo Murder, treason, torture none of these things are illegal?  What about outting CIA operatives, lieing to the american public, killing innocent civilians and totally ignoring the geneva convention.  None of this worries you elephants, it's all a "drug induced fantasy" cooked up by the liberal media!  I guess whatever lets you sleep at night....
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1. Murder. Are you seriously suggesting that Bush murdered or tortured someone directly? If not, then it would be conspiracy to commit murder. If you are referring to Iraq, then it is not murder, but war, a different category.
2. In all probability Joe Wilson was the first to out his wife, Valerie Plame. In any event, nothing is yet proven, so hold your horses. I think it counts as outing if you appear on the cover of Vanity Fair and hold impromptu press conferences at airports.
3. If Bush lied to the American public, so did Saddam, Clinton, Allbright, Gore, Kennedy, Blair, etc, etc because they all said that Saddam posed a 'WMD threat.
Lying isn't not telling the truth, lying is knowing the truth and deliberately saying something else. You would have to prove that Bush knew that there were no WMD but said otherwise. No one has come close to that.
4. By killing innocent civilians, I assume you are not referring to those who behead them on television, those who blow them up with IEDs, those who arrest them and place them in torture chambers and rape rooms. These are all documented facts, done by our enemies. I assume you mean the unintentional deaths of innocent Iraqis, which we apologize for and pay damages for. Do you see the difference No one could say that beheading a hostage with a pocketknife on live tv is an accident. But shooting at a car speeding toward your roadblock and finding out that it has civilians in it and no bomb is justifiable and unavoidable. The main difference is that our soldiers seek to avoid killing civilians. For terrorists, that is the whole point.
5. Totally ignoring the Geneva convention. First, the Convention applies only to those who have signed it and the insurgents have not. Second it applies only to enemy combatants, that is, to soldiers. The insurgents are not recognized as soldiers. Still, we are observing the Geneva Convention. The problem is not with Bush, but with the convention itself, which is vague as to the definition of torture. Are bright lights and rock music torture? Is being interrogated by an immodest woman torture? Is having the Koran touched by an infidel in your presence torture? Wait, where did they get the Koran in the first place? And why have they on average gained 15 pounds? Do you think if you were captured by the Iraqis you would gain weight, be given a Koran, have a priest provided to you, etc? Or would it be more likely that you would be beheaded on TV, begging for your life? See the difference?
Now I disagree with Bush's torture policy on two major points: rendition and status of detainees. First, I think we shouldn't send detainees to countries where they might be tortured. Second, I think we need some judicial review for the detainees and a right to a speedy trial. Since they are neither criminals nor POWs we need to invent something new. But neither of these are close to impeachable offenses "High Crimes and Misdemeanors".
For a comparison of what Clinton did versus what Bush is doing vis-a-vis wiretapping, see:
[url="http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5150"]http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5150[/url]
[quote]o, during the Clinton Administration, evidence existed (all of the information used in this article was available at the time) that:

    -an invasive, extensive domestic eavesdropping program was aimed at every U.S. citizen;

    -intelligence agencies were using allies to circumvent constitutional restrictions;

    -and the administration was selling at least some secret intelligence for political donations.

These revelations were met by the New York Times and others in the mainstream media by the sound of one hand clapping. Now, reports that the Bush Administration approved electronic eavesdropping, strictly limited to international communications, of a relative handful of suspected terrorists have created a media frenzy in the Times and elsewhere.[/quote]

[thessalonian]

Just more evidence of the juvenille behavior of liberals. Ever listen to Air America Radio. If you want to get the mentality of these rabid people listen for 10 minutes. Adults in their thirties and fourties making flatulation sounds about republicans and talking about the head up their a*$*ss so far, vulgarity, profanity, you name it. No class at all. And democrats keep this radio up and running. It's incredible. You can't have reasonable discussions with these people because they are not usually capable of rational thought in my experience with them. They speak of tolerance, yet are the most intollerant of all. If you are pro-life you are not fit, according to them for public office. They hate conservatives. It's of the devil.

Reading your posts Padre, you will probably be offended by my post. Oh well.

Edited January 13, 2006 by thessalonian

[Paphnutius]

Thanks for the post argent. Could you please point me to a source about the torture policy to which you alluded?

[Didacus]

The first law of England during Henry VIII's rule:

The king can do no wrong!
_________________________________________

Back to you Bob...

[Socrates]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Jan 13 2006, 07:59 AM']That guy in the upper right corner...is that Lex Luthor?  O my gosh!  George Bush has been working secretly with comic book villians!  How horrendous!  Let's impeach him! 
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[/quote]
That was actually part of the plot of Frank Miller's [i]The Dark Knight Strikes Again[/i] (which was a disappointing piece of carp, btw).
Except the President was actually a computer-generated hologram controlled by Lex Luthor.

(And that cartoon Padre keeps posting isn't even funny - it's just dumb, boring liberal rants. Whoever draws it needs to look for another job.)

[qfnol31]

Torture is what CPS does to someone they think is guilty:

I had a professor in politics give us a news story on CPS that told of a father forced to look at porn for hours to get his reaction just to check if he was guilty or not.

[God the Father]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Jan 13 2006, 07:21 AM']The Impeachment of George W. Bush
By Ex-Representative Elizabeth Holtzman
Principal author of Congressional Resolutions to Impeach Richard Nixon

Finally, it has started. People have begun to speak of impeaching President George W. Bush--not in hushed whispers but openly, in newspapers, [b]on the Internet,[/b] in ordinary conversations and even in Congress.
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[/quote]

OMFG guys, they're talking about it on teh intarweb, things must really be getting serious. Get ready for President Cheney everybody.

[crazymaine catholic]

anyone wanna buy a private island and create our own country? sounds like a good idea to me. a nice, catholic island. :

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='crazymaine catholic' date='Jan 13 2006, 11:44 PM']anyone wanna buy a private island and create our own country? sounds like a good idea to me. a nice, catholic island.  :
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I think someone was trying that earlier last year. Was it Aloysius? I cannot remember.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 13 2006, 11:54 PM']I think someone was trying that earlier last year. Was it Aloysius? I cannot remember. 
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prolly who yer thinkin of. he wanted to get land some place, not an island as far as I know. And he still wants to do this.

[benedictaj]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 14 2006, 03:51 AM']Okay, so I am not well educated on exactly what happened on the torture issuse. Can someone please clearly and briefly explain it to me or point me to an article that would?
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If they're alluding to Guantanamo bay, you won't want to know.

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jan 14 2006, 12:34 AM']Americain politics 

I think i'll stick with Canada thank you.
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Yeah, what's Canada like? NZ is pretty bad as well, so maybe I'll join y'all on that Catholic island....sounds pretty hot!

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Jan 13 2006, 08:38 AM']...killing innocent civilians and totally ignoring the geneva convention.  None of this worries you elephants, it's all a "drug induced fantasy" cooked up by the liberal media!  I guess whatever lets you sleep at night....
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i have your "killing innocent civilians" right here, Padre!






















[img]http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/what_a_difference.jpg[/img]

[son_of_angels]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 13 2006, 11:07 AM']I am just curious...is anyone going to approach the topic of torture? I honestly do not know what happened, so can someone please explain it?
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[/quote]

I don't know the details...But here's the deal, when a war is going on (and I don't mean the fictional "War on Terror" (a war against ghosts and specters) but the war in Iraq) BAD THINGS HAPPEN. That is why in general one likes to avoid war, but, when the decision is made, its made, and one can't prevent the bad effects of such a war. It's like complaining about all the symptoms of an STD after you've had random sex with somebody! There are moral dilemmas in war, as in all other passionate human actions, due to that whole nasty "fall of man" thing. We have and will often suffer because of it, and so will others. Sometimes torture is necessary, that doesn't make it good. Sometimes bombing a civilian target, that doesn't make it good.

Let the left complain to its little heart's desire, if Kerry had been elected the War would either be going exactly as it is now, or he would simply have started pulling back our troops out of unprotected areas and left thousands of people stranded without assistence. That would have been morally wrong as well...so let's just screw ourselves up and take care of this thing, without all the bickering!

[Akalyte]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Jan 13 2006, 06:38 AM']Sooooo Murder, treason, torture none of these things are illegal?  What about outting CIA operatives, lieing to the american public, killing innocent civilians and totally ignoring the geneva convention.  None of this worries you elephants, it's all a "drug induced fantasy" cooked up by the liberal media!  I guess whatever lets you sleep at night....
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[/quote]

Liberal democrats are responsible for the murder of lets see, just about 50,000, 000 babies? Maybe we can impeach the entire party!!! I know if i had the power that party would be shutdown for good.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Akalyte

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Jan 13 2006, 08:38 AM']Sooooo Murder, treason, torture none of these things are illegal?  What about outting CIA operatives, lieing to the american public, killing innocent civilians and totally ignoring the geneva convention.  None of this worries you elephants, it's all a "drug induced fantasy" cooked up by the liberal media!  I guess whatever lets you sleep at night....
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[url="http://www.zpub.com/un/un-bc-body.html"]right right right... its all a dream[/url]

[Paphnutius]

[quote]The President has done nothing illegal. If you feel otherwise, find the laws which he has broken.....I'll be waiting years for you to find one.... [/quote]I was checking CNN today and found this article. I am not sure about credibility and what not, but is seemed to pretain to just this thread. I am not supporting either side, but found this and thought it appropriate to post:[quote]Gore said the use of the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans without a court order shows that President Bush "has been breaking the law repeatedly and persistently."[/quote]

There articel may be found [url="http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/16/gore.constitution/index.html"]here[/url]. I still cannot find which law specifically, but this was at least something related.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

CNN isn't exactly the best news source. They're extremely biased.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Jan 16 2006, 02:30 PM']CNN isn't exactly the best news source.  They're extremely biased.
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I know but it was something to post.