My first Tridentine Mass Experience

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Jan 17 2006, 02:38 PM']I disagree.  I know that the Lefebvrites and other independant groups will probably not go to it but where is the surprise here?  They are protestors, pure and simple, it's what they are.***

With that said, I attend, on a weekly basis, an indult mass that is FULL of Roman Catholics, most of whom would eagerly embrace a properly said NO mass.  I'm one of them and I absolutely know that most of us would rather not have to attend an indult mass if given a good alternative.  My family drives over 50 miles to go to a good and reverent mass on Sundays, I'd much rather go to a local church where the NO is said properly and with reverence.  Where I don't have to worry about what my children saw and heard.

*** I realize that I'm painting the Lefebvrites with a broad brush, I know they are not all the same.  If this doesn't describe you, my apologies.  It does, however, accurately describe the SSPX priests and lay people that I know personally.
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I have friends who wouldn't be caught dead at an SSPX Mass, but they prefer the Tridentine (indult) Mass. From conversations that I've had with them I tend to think the issues are bigger. My one buddy argues for the superiority of the old cycle of readings and prefers the old calendar.
I personally really love the [i]Judica Me [/i]and [i]Asperges Me[/i], which probably won't be restored as they once were. And things such a concelebration, multiple Eucharistic prayers, priest facing the people, communion on the hand, the new rites for ordination, baptism, etc.. and even the modern architecture and music factor in. It would take a pretty major overhaul to really get to the point where traditionalists in general would be comfortable leaving behind the Tridentine rite.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jan 17 2006, 08:31 PM']I agree Myles. I really don't have a problem with a liturgical pluralism within the Roman Church. But what bothers me is the negativity toward the mainstream Roman Catholic liturgical life. Certainly much of this negativity is well founded (one of Aidan Nichol's books on the liturgical movement of the 1970's had me pretty upset for several weeks).

But the issues of the calendar and other such things are interesting to me. Can you envision a future in which there are Tridentine Bishops and a Tridentine Rite that is practically a sui juris church? It would have its own calendar and possibly even its own canon law. hehe I highly doubt something like this would ever happen. But how can the tension between these two rites within the Roman church be adequately resolved? It is hard to think of a scenario that would really be acceptable to everyone.
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Well I find it hard to believe given the history of Mediaeval liturgical pluralism that the Tridentine rite could become a sui juris church surely if that was going to happen to anyone in the West it would've happened to the Mozarabs or even the Ambrosians. I dont believe that Rome will attempt to 'find' a solution to this but rather continue to encourage the indult and orders like the FSSP that have the vocation to preserve the ancient liturgy. Benedetto has in his books written about how he views a liturgical pluaralism as a legitimate option and with his ideas on organic development I dont believe he will try to superimpose order on the growth of the Tridentine set.

PS) Aidan Nichols OP is a great man. I had the pleasure of corresponding with him. He had a lot of patience to put up with my questioning, lol! He said to me in the end. Rather than asking me questions why dont you go and learn French and then go to the Bodlein library and pick up a few books.

[Desert Walker]

Non-sorta-liturgically speaking, I would say that the real important issue in this is what the Mass ritual should communicate to the people who experience it. Post Vatican II we see a general lack of understanding about the crucial place of sacrificial offering as (get a load of this) GOD'S answer to sin.

I think the NO mass fails to bring people's attention to the fact that, yeah Christ celebrated the communal last supper, but after that... well Mel's movie shows it all. He had to pay a price that we may be one in Him.

The question is how much do we want to focus, that is meditate, on the person of Christ in the Mass? Or do we want to focus on the person of Christ in the people at the Mass? What did the Apostles do?

I think there is a mistaken notion that ritual focus on the communal side of Mass is going to bring about lasting unity in a parish, when actually, it is meditating on Jesus Christ in the Eucharist that brings this about. The foundations of unity are contained in the Eucharist which was the focal point of the Tridentine Mass, not I think, at least in practice, in NO. NO seems TOO distracted from this focus today.

The lessons of dealing with the "technicalities" so to speak of of living authentic Christian community should not, I think be seen, in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Instruction on how to live communally should be contained in the Liturgy of the Word which includes the homily or sermon.

I don't know if I'm making sense. I haven't really thought these things out a whole lot. But there it is anyway.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Myles' date='Jan 17 2006, 02:44 PM']Well I find it hard to believe given the history of Mediaeval liturgical pluralism that the Tridentine rite could become a sui juris church surely if that was going to happen to anyone in the West it would've happened to the Mozarabs or even the Ambrosians. I dont believe that Rome will attempt to 'find' a solution to this but rather continue to encourage the indult and orders like the FSSP that have the vocation to preserve the ancient liturgy. Benedetto has in his books written about how he views a liturgical pluaralism as a legitimate option and with his ideas on organic development I dont believe he will try to superimpose order on the growth of the Tridentine set.

PS) Aidan Nichols OP is a great man. I had the pleasure of corresponding with him. He had a lot of patience to put up with my questioning, lol! He said to me in the end. Rather than asking me questions why dont you go and learn French and then go to the Bodlein library and pick up a few books.
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That actually sounds like a good idea (learning french).

Oh, and I know that the Tridentine rite will never become a sui juris church, I was just kicking around ideas for the sake of doing it.

What books did Nichols recommend?

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jan 17 2006, 03:43 PM']I have friends who wouldn't be caught dead at an SSPX Mass, but they prefer the Tridentine (indult) Mass. From conversations that I've had with them I tend to think the issues are bigger. My one buddy argues for the superiority of the old cycle of readings and prefers the old calendar.
I personally really love the [i]Judica Me [/i]and [i]Asperges Me[/i], which probably won't be restored as they once were. And things such a concelebration, multiple Eucharistic prayers, priest facing the people, communion on the hand, the new rites for ordination, baptism, etc.. and even the modern architecture and music factor in. It would take a pretty major overhaul to really get to the point where traditionalists in general would be comfortable leaving behind the Tridentine rite.
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I must admit that you are right because everything you describe are important to me as well.

I totally agree about the Judica Me and Asperges Me. I love them, I especially love the Asperges Me chant.

[OLAM Dad]

Laudate_Dominum, happy 8000th post! Edited January 17, 2006 by OLAM Dad

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jan 17 2006, 08:43 PM']I have friends who wouldn't be caught dead at an SSPX Mass, but they prefer the Tridentine (indult) Mass. From conversations that I've had with them I tend to think the issues are bigger. My one buddy argues for the superiority of the old cycle of readings and prefers the old calendar.
I personally really love the [i]Judica Me [/i]and [i]Asperges Me[/i], which probably won't be restored as they once were. And things such a concelebration, multiple Eucharistic prayers, priest facing the people, communion on the hand, the new rites for ordination, baptism, etc.. and even the modern architecture and music factor in. It would take a pretty major overhaul to really get to the point where traditionalists in general would be comfortable leaving behind the Tridentine rite.
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Agreed which is why in some ways I resent all this talk. No offence to the great scholars of the day but in many ways you're work is becoming less relevant. The Ressourcement movement began as a means of re-relating faith to culture but its running the risk of becoming as divorced from reality as the theological trends it supplanted. Enough chat how about some action?

How many books are there out by credible scholars, good Catholic teachers, solid orthodox preachers on why the Mass should be said facing a common direction, why modern church art with its asymetry detracts from the focus upon the Eucharist, why Gregorian Chant is the most meditative and thus most apt form of liturgical music and yet what fruits has all this borne? Apart from Fr Joseph Fessio SJ I know of very few of these book authors who are actually putting into practice the fruits of their study.

If all the reform of the reform movement is going to be is an endless and circular series of debate then its utterly pointless.

[Era Might]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Jan 17 2006, 03:31 PM']Why don't we all just settle down, and talk about what we enjoyed/didn't enjoy at our first Trid. Latin mass, like good civil Catholics who recognize the diversity of rites?
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I very much disliked the Tridentine Mass the first few times I attended. I almost gave my missal away to someone there who could use it, as I never planned to return again. Distant, foreign, not particularly aesthetic (the low Masses, anyway).

But, after a while, I got used to it, and I rather enjoy it now. I do not like flipping through a Missal, so I learned to recognize what is going on in the Mass at specific points, rather than what is being said. This is one reason why I prefer the reformed rite, as it allows me more immediate fruit for recollection. But there are strengths and weaknesses to both Orders of Mass, and both yield the same fruit, if approached with reverence and piety.

On paper, I think the prayers at the foot of the altar are a PERFECT introduction to Mass, and I would love to see it restored. Not, however, as a silent, basically personal preparation of the Priest, but a vocal, dialogic rite.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Era Might

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

this is just my thoughts:

I prefer the Old mass for a couple of reasons. I enjoy the atmosphere of prayer it creates. I like the idea of Mass as just going and showing up. I am not the biggest fan of so called "active praticipation". I would rather just go to mass, to pray or pray the rosary during mass. As i said before the traditonal reason certain readings were done was to shed light on the feast of the day (or so i have been told). I have talked to Many Trads who say the readings in the new mass confuse them, and do not pretain to a certain feast. Also the idea that the Liturgy of the Word is somehow equal to the Liturgy of the Eucharist seems to de-emphasise the Sacrifice of the mass. As Archbishop Lefebvre says: "If they do not let them pray at mass, when will they pray?"

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Jan 17 2006, 02:50 PM']Laudate_Dominum,  happy 8000th post!
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whoa! I didn't even notice.. thanks!!!

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Myles' date='Jan 17 2006, 02:50 PM']Agreed which is why in some ways I resent all this talk. No offence to the great scholars of the day but in many ways you're work is becoming less relevant. The Ressourcement movement began as a means of re-relating faith to culture but its running the risk of becoming as divorced from reality as the theological trends it supplanted. Enough chat how about some action?

How many books are there out by credible scholars, good Catholic teachers, solid orthodox preachers on why the Mass should be said facing a common direction, why modern church art with its asymetry detracts from the focus upon the Eucharist, why Gregorian Chant is the most meditative and thus most apt form of liturgical music and yet what fruits has all this borne? Apart from Fr Joseph Fessio SJ I know of very few of these book authors who are actually putting into practice the fruits of their study.

If all the reform of the reform movement is going to be is an endless and circular series of debate then its utterly pointless.
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:applause:

Thanks be to God the current Roman Pontiff has written a few things in this regard which are sweet.

Your post is inspiring me to get a couple of doctorates (so that people will actually care what I say) and try to publish stuff about this.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 17 2006, 03:41 PM']well I am currently unaware If i would consider myself an sspxer or not. im still searching.
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[/quote]Your avatar might suggest otherwise.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jan 17 2006, 08:48 PM'] That actually sounds like a good idea (learning french).

Oh, and I know that the Tridentine rite will never become a sui juris church, I was just kicking around ideas for the sake of doing it.

What books did Nichols recommend?
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Actually I forgot and it looks like I lost the emails from my inbox too so I couldnt tell you. I could always write and ask him again but I dont know how he'd feel about me pestering him more : . Its good that England can have at least a few premier league Catholic scholars though like Fr Aidan. One of my friends has him as his parish priest up at Cambridge. Incidentally he has a Tridentine perusasion too.

PS) Praying the Rosary during Mass EENS in many ways is distancing yourself from the mystery of being at Heaven on Earth. What should strike you in the silence of the Tridentine Mass is the awesome wonder of being in the prescence of God and the saints. If you find your mind going away from the reality of what is actually happening around you as earth and Heaven collide by the power of God. I'd say there's something missing.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 17 2006, 03:50 PM']I do not like flipping through a Missal, so I learned to recognize what is going on in the Mass at specific points, rather than what is being said. This is one reason why I prefer the reformed rite, as it allows me more immediate fruit for recollection.
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You might want to look for a 'continous' Sunday missal. In the continous missals each mass in complete, no flipping.

Edited January 17, 2006 by OLAM Dad

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Myles' date='Jan 17 2006, 02:56 PM']Actually I forgot and it looks like I lost the emails from my inbox too so I couldnt tell you. I could always write and ask him again but I dont know how he'd feel about me pestering him more  : . Its good that England can have at least a few premier league Catholic scholars though like Fr Aidan. One of my friends has him as his parish priest up at Cambridge. Incidentally he has a Tridentine perusasion too.

PS) Praying the Rosary during Mass EENS in many ways is distancing yourself from the mystery of being at Heaven on Earth. What should strike you in the silence of the Tridentine Mass is the awesome wonder of being in the prescence of God and the saints. If you find your mind going away from the reality of what is actually happening around you as earth and Heaven collide by the power of God. I'd say there's something missing.
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hehe, np. Perhaps I'll eventually find the books if I keep studying.

btw, I've managed to justify bringing my chotki to Mass. The spirit of the Jesus Prayer seems so consistent with the spirit of the liturgy that I've never felt any tension between the two. Just a random curiosity. Feel free to shoot me down.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Jan 17 2006, 03:56 PM']Your avatar might suggest otherwise. 
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my avatar is actually a joke

but if it confuses people i may have to change it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 17 2006, 03:01 PM']my avatar is actually a joke 

but if it confuses people i may have to change it.
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I just think its funny.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 17 2006, 04:01 PM']my avatar is actually a joke 

but if it confuses people i may have to change it.
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There's nothing wrong with your avatar, I just don't get the joke. :

[Era Might]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Jan 17 2006, 04:58 PM']You might want to look for a 'continous' Sunday missal.  In the continous missals each mass in complete, no flipping.
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It's not the flipping that bothers me, it's the reading. I like to hear the words of Mass, and meditate on it as I hear. I can't really do that when I'm reading.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-2482.jpg[/img]