Evolution

[rkwright]

First off... I'd really rather aviod the bigger question and avoid the evolution vs creationism debate. I guess if someone wants to start another thread to debate that go for it...

But I really like to hear the implications of buying into evolution. I should say by evolution I mean God still created the first cell or whatever, then it was His plan for us to be us. Does this have any implications on Orginal Sin or Free Will or the Fall of Adam??

[qfnol31]

I would say that "evolution" can happen when the couple (or animal) decides to procreate.

That's when God must intervene to give the life (soul) and can work then.

[Resurrexi]

Darwinian evolution cannot, and should not be believed, for there is little or no scientific evidence supporting it. Charles Darwin was a heretic and is in the mouth of Satan in the centre of Hell with Brugus, Cassius, and Brutus.

have I acted trad enough to get the "hello, i do not rep the church" under my avatar yet????

[qfnol31]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Jan 16 2006, 01:05 AM']Darwinian evolution cannot, and should not be believed, for there is little or no scientific evidence supporting it. Charles Darwin was a heretic and is in the mouth of Satan in the centre of Hell with Brugus, Cassius, and Brutus.

have I acted trad enough to get the "hello, i do not rep the church" under my avatar yet????
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You're a little young for such concerns.

By the way, my type of evolution was Augustinian.

[rkwright]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Jan 16 2006, 01:05 AM']Darwinian evolution cannot, and should not be believed, for there is little or no scientific evidence supporting it. Charles Darwin was a heretic and is in the mouth of Satan in the centre of Hell with Brugus, Cassius, and Brutus.

have I acted trad enough to get the "hello, i do not rep the church" under my avatar yet????
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hey man not cool, I asked an intelligent question and was looking for answers, not people trying to provide a POV in order to get a "hello, i do not rep" title.

The Church has provided enough room in its teachings for one to accept either veiw point.

I'm not an expert on how this forum works...but I'm pretty sure that being a 'trad' does not get the title you seek. you can be a Catholic and a 'trad'. Of course if you put forward views that are not in line with the Catholic faith you might get that title.

Back to the question at hand. Does Christianity work without the Historic Adam and Fall?

[rkwright]

Q so far I'm kinda with you... I see no problems, but I don't know if I'm missing something...

[Resurrexi]

no. Original sin is the entire basis of the theology of the Catholic Church. Hello Adam and Eve sinned. None were allowed to enter Heaven. God himself was made flesh and sacrificed himself on clavary as an attonement for the sins of man. This was the greatest sacrifice ever performed. This same sacrifice is happens again at every Mass. God did so much for us. He asks that we do so little in return: Obey his commandments and love him. So no, Catholicism makes no sense witout a real person being adam or the Fall.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 15 2006, 09:39 PM']
But I really like to hear the implications of buying into evolution.
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For one thing, you can't be too harsh on the Nazi's for their breeding programs....

[KnightofChrist]

Darwinian evolution is a bit of a heresy. In Darwinian evolution there is no soul, and there is no God. Under this belief we, all of us, every living thing did not come for God and we have no soul, but rather we were created in somekind of magical cosmic goo, and there is no meaning to life other than to reproduce. In Darwinian evolution the missing link is still missing. Darwinian evolution is always changing decade by decade. Since Truth never changes in is very doubtful Darwinian evolution is truth, maybe some elements of truth but not The Truth.

[Tata126]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Jan 16 2006, 12:05 AM']Darwinian evolution cannot, and should not be believed, for there is little or no scientific evidence supporting it. Charles Darwin was a heretic and is in the mouth of Satan in the centre of Hell with Brugus, Cassius, and Brutus.

have I acted trad enough to get the "hello, i do not rep the church" under my avatar yet????
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If you accept it as an explanation for physical development, or if you recognize that when humans were given souls (when they still looked like monkeys? Why not? Genesis says that God breathed into clay...) they became essentially different from animals, and so evolution only works on humans before they became what makes us essentially human, then sure, you can believe it. I know that's not quite Darwin, but you can believe some of his precepts, and perhaps even be right. I mean, the man had some good ideas along with his bad ones.

By the way, I think Dante's Satan is munching on Judas, Brutus and Cassius.

[Myles Domini]

Rkwright it might be an idea to read the Catechetical Lectures of Cardinal Shonborn (and other writings of His Eminence) as they appear on the [url="http://www.cardinalschonborn.com/"]The Shonborn Site[/url].

[Brother Adam]

Implications involve mainly philosophical questions, but there is little compelling scientific evidence to accept evolution. It is a theory with almost no substance at all. The main problems revolve around man being made in the image and likeness of God and all creatures being created perfectly functioning and good at the time of creation.

All Catholics must believe that there was a first man and a first woman and that no other humans existed when they existed except their offspring. They are the parents of all of humanity. You must believe that God is the origin of everything that exists, and that Adam and Eve sinned and fell. While you don't have to believe Genesis 1 and 2 are scientific fact, you do indeed, have to believe that the truths they teach, did historically happen.

[Guest JeffCR07]

As Cardinal Schonborn points out in his article [i]The Designs of Science[/i], modern science discounts, [i]a priori[/i] formal and final cause from its discussion and inquiry. Thus, neo-darwinism deals exclusively with material and efficient cause, not on accident, but as a matter of principle.

Because I don't want to write out a treatise on this, suffice it to say that one can be a neo-darwinian if one is willing to admit that neo-darwinism is a discussion of only material and efficient cause, and if one is willing to acknowledge that formal and final cause can be looked at seperately.

On a side note: as long as you believe that evolution did indeed create two first parents, one male and one female, and that God informed those First Parents with souls, that those first parents fell from a state of original justice into a state of original sin, and that the human race sprang from them, then you're fine.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[morostheos]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 16 2006, 02:33 AM']Darwinian evolution is a bit of  a heresy.  In Darwinian evolution there is no soul, and there is no God.  Under this belief we, all of us, every living thing did not come for God and we have no soul, but rather we were created in somekind of magical cosmic goo, and there is no meaning to life other than to reproduce.  In Darwinian evolution the missing link is still missing.  Darwinian evolution is always changing decade by decade.  Since Truth never changes in is very doubtful Darwinian evolution is truth, maybe some elements of truth but not The Truth.
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The scientific theory of Darwinian evolution cannot make claims about the existence of a soul, or of God, or the meaning of life. Scientific theories are always changing, and make no claim to be the Truth. This is because all of these topics lie outside of the realm of science, which is limited to the physical realm, and is always tentative, based on the evidence available at a certain point in time.

Those who claim any of these points that you have mentioned are not talking about the scientific theory, but about the ideologies many choose to draw from the scientific theory. These ideologies are not in line with the teaching of the Catholic Church, but have no bearing on the acceptability of a scientific theory.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Jan 16 2006, 02:17 AM']For one thing, you can't be too harsh on the Nazi's for their breeding programs....
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Someone I know was very into that type of thinking before he became a Christian, using Darwinian-based logic. His reasoning was that if people have evolved, it makes sense that some people would be further along than others.

Since his conversion more than 30 years ago, he's gotten heavily into creationism as a reaction against the faulty beliefs of his youth.

[Circle_Master]

I think it depends on how much of the evolutionary theory you choose to believe. If you believe the parts that it makes 'educated guesses' on based on an underlying atheism, then there is a problem. Parts that would fall under that is a 4.5 billion year old earth, the atmosphere of an early earth, and some of the 'evolutionary links'. It is clear that God was the hand in creating, but does evolution happen? Sure it does. It is more a reaction against evolution than any common sense that says evolution [i]can't[/i] happen. Things evolve and change constantly. In Genesis it says God created things after their own kind, now we have a crazy number of breeds of dogs, of cats, of numerous things.

I personally believe in a view similar to Peter Enns of Westminster Seminary on Genesis 1:1-2:4. My view states that the ancient people who compiled that section of Genesis understood the language to be descriptive of events that basically came to one point: God. God was at the beginning. I don't believe it to be a scientific grid, and so because of that, and because of [url="http://www.girs.com/library/theology/syllabus/creation_green.html"]great[/url] articles such as the one [url="http://www.girs.com/library/theology/syllabus/creation_green.html"]linked[/url] it is reasonable to assume an older age to the earth. Perhaps several million years old, I am not sure. Until Intelligent Design scientists have formed some coherent theories on the age of the earth I'll probably have to keep speculating. I also believe that during that process there was forms of evolution going around - particular devolution. If Adam came from the garden of Eden as a 'perfect' human, I am sure he would be smarter than me, more agile, stronger, better in art, science, math, and everything. He was no cave man but the head of an entire race that began propagating in a fallen world! We are amazed constantly at the intelligence of ancient human beings and at the same time we often associate intelligence with culminated knowledge. Yes we know more today, but it is because we had what they did to work on.

[morostheos]

What does the age of the Earth have to do with whether or not one believes in God?

[peacenluvbaby]

Interesting points....I dont think it is the age of the earth so much as the fact that the Intelligent Design theorists have not offered a compelling opposite to theories of evolution. It might be useful also to look at what Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, has said about evolution - pointing out that there is no moral or theological objection to the principles of evolution as heresy, but that as all science, there must be an acknowledgement that God imparted on those early humans "souls" at some point in the evolutionary chain.

And btw, StThomasMore - I think this is a case of using the saint's name in vain. Have you read his "Utopia" or other essays - they don't smack of the FIRE and BRIMSTONE you seem to love so much. Maybe you should change your name to Jimmy Swaggart - or just refrain from making catholics look like ignorant "you're going to hell" preachers. ok?
Peace to you! Relax.....breathe....deeply....maybe try yoga.

Peace out!

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='morostheos' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:55 AM']The scientific theory of Darwinian evolution cannot make claims about the existence of a soul, or of God, or the meaning of life.  Scientific theories are always changing, and make no claim to be the Truth.  This is because all of these topics lie outside of the realm of science, which is limited to the physical realm, and is always tentative, based on the evidence available at a certain point in time.

Those who claim any of these points that you have mentioned are not talking about the scientific theory, but about the ideologies many choose to draw from the scientific theory.  These ideologies are not in line with the teaching of the Catholic Church, but have no bearing on the acceptability of a scientific theory.
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That comes back to what I said before concerning Cardinal Schonborn's article about evolution. Science doesn't speak about formal or final cause as a matter of principle. God can be known by looking at nature according to [i]final[/i] cause, not efficient or material (i.e. scientific inquiry).

[morostheos]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 16 2006, 01:30 PM']That comes back to what I said before concerning Cardinal Schonborn's article about evolution. Science doesn't speak about formal or final cause as a matter of principle. God can be known by looking at nature according to [i]final[/i] cause, not efficient or material (i.e. scientific inquiry).
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Cardinal Schonborn is da man! I highly reccommend to anyone interested in this subject to read his catecheses about evolution.