how involved is God

[photosynthesis]

How involved is God in everyday human affairs?

We all know that God entered into human history through the person of Jesus Christ, and that he enters into our own lives personally by feeling what we feel and knowing what we experience.

But if I am on a baseball team, and my team and the other team both pray before a game, is God at work in the outcome?

We all know God is sovereign, but can he choose not to exercise his sovereignty?

[jasJis]

God chooses not to exercise his 'sovergeignty' almost always.

[OLAM Dad]

I don't believe anybody has an answer to this question. I'll be tagging to find out though.

I don't think it's because nobody knows, rather it's because there is no single answer.

God knocked Paul off his horse, blinded him and spoke to him. That is pretty directly involved. To most of us, however, God speaks in whispers and we usually get to choose whether to listen or not to what He is saying. Then, again, we get to choose to act or not to act based on what He tells us.

This whole gift of free will is totally overrated.

[jezic]

God is involved in everything. We just don't always "feel it"

He is involved by the virtue of his ability to use our own free choices to advance his plan of salvation for the world.

[philothea]

I find it hard to draw a distinction between direct, divine intervention, and the fact that the entire universe throughout all time is an expression of God's will.

[jezic]

that is a good point as well.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jan 18 2006, 12:34 AM']How involved is God in everyday human affairs?

We all know that God entered into human history through the person of Jesus Christ, and that he enters into our own lives personally by feeling what we feel and knowing what we experience.

But if I am on a baseball team, and my team and the other team both pray before a game, is God at work in the outcome?

We all know God is sovereign, but can he choose not to exercise his sovereignty?
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I can't remember a time when I didn't sense God's involvement in my life ... sometimes more strongly than others, but always there. But how to quantify it? To say that God will or will not affect the outcome of a football game just seems too limiting. Who am I to say God can't use the outcome of a game to woo someone to himself?

I've never thought of it, though, as "God loves my team more than the other team" (although it's clear that God does love the Colts more than most -- he disciplines those he loves) or "God cares what kind of car I drive" or anything along those lines. I think of God's involvement in my life and in the lives of others as being an invitation to relationship, an invitation to follow his lead, as in a dance. And within that relationship, providing for needs with the intent of making us holy.

[Paphnutius]

It seems like you have to strike a balance somewhere between Deism and Occasionalism.

God is always involved with your life and wants to become more involved by grace, but you have to let Him and be open to His action.

edit: Maybe instead of asking how involved is God with you (generic you), ask how involved are you with God?

Edited January 18, 2006 by Paphnutius

[Jaime]

Well there is the "Dark Night of the Soul" folks.

Saints and mystics talk about periods in their lives when they absolutely cannot feel the presence of God

[Sojourner]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jan 18 2006, 12:42 PM']Well there is the "Dark Night of the Soul" folks. 

Saints and mystics talk about periods in their lives when they absolutely cannot feel the presence of God
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That is true ... doesn't Mother Teresa write about feeling that way for most of her life?

[Azriel]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 18 2006, 10:44 AM']That is true ... doesn't Mother Teresa write about feeling that way for most of her life?
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Yes she did, and the Little Flower went through a tremendous Dark Night of the Soul.

I, too, have been through it. Its quite literally, hell.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Azriel' date='Jan 18 2006, 11:15 AM']Yes she did, and the Little Flower went through a tremendous Dark Night of the Soul.
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At first I thought you were talking about flowery.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jan 18 2006, 11:49 AM']I find it hard to draw a distinction between direct, divine intervention, and the fact that the entire universe throughout all time is an expression of God's will.
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me too

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 18 2006, 12:40 PM']It seems like you have to strike a balance somewhere between Deism and Occasionalism.
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can you define those?

Yesterday I was listening to this podcast made by a Dutch Priest named Father Roderick. You can listen to it here:
[url="http://catholicinsider.com/scripts/index.php"]http://catholicinsider.com/scripts/index.php[/url]
He was talking about Mayor Nagin of New Orleans' remarks on Martin Luther King Day, where he said that Hurricane Katrina was an expression of God's wrath at New Orleans for all of the injustice and debauchery that was going on.

In the podcast, Fr. Roderick was talking about how dangerous it is to claim to know what is going on in the mind of God, and how it is a mistake to project one's feelings and thoughts onto God. He also said that God does not concern Himself with everyday life so much as to destroy New Orleans, even though he could. What he said left me with an image of a God who didn't really care about the little things, when we all know that isn't true.

[Sojourner]

Deism: God set the world in motion and left it to run on its own sans intervention.

Occasionalism: God continually intervenes in the workings of the world.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jan 18 2006, 11:35 AM']can you define those?
[/quote]Deism is where God created things and then basically left it alone. Like spinning a top, or winding a watch are the typical examples. It is a distant, non involved God. He made all things work out in the end.

Occasionalism denies basic human freedom stating that God is the sole cause for everything and just uses created things (including humans) as the occasion for action.

They are the two basic extremes in this topic I think. One denies all of God's action in time. The other denies any action other than God's.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jan 18 2006, 11:35 AM']

In the podcast, Fr. Roderick was talking about how dangerous it is to claim to know what is going on in the mind of God, and how it is a mistake to project one's feelings and thoughts onto God.  [right][snapback]859888[/snapback][/right]
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There is a validity to this, because, even if it is true that God gets involved in minute decisions over and above giving guidelines, that can be abused by people who try to use it to manipulate people or cause unhealthy second guessing. There is a word for people like that: religious cult.

Someone else here said it best some time ago: as long as one is not breaking any of God's laws, who is anyone to accuse him of not following God's will?

[jezic]

I do think though that God can use every action for his plan. So while he isn't in control of the little things, he still paints the big picture (kind of like those pictures made up of hundreds of smaller ones)

[Sojourner]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jan 18 2006, 02:06 PM']I do think though that God can use every action for his plan. So while he isn't in control of the little things, he still paints the big picture (kind of like those pictures made up of hundreds of smaller ones)
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I'd hesitate to say "isn't in control" ... perhaps "chooses not to intervene" in certain little things?

[jezic]

i mean isn't in control in the sense that people are free to choose on their own, without his intervention.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 18 2006, 11:38 AM']Deism: God set the world in motion and left it to run on its own sans intervention.

Occasionalism: God continually intervenes in the workings of the world.
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Well, as Catholics we believe that God continually intervenes in the working of the world (not quite the best way of putting it though) this is simply what we call providence. Occasionalism is more radical than that and says that created beings have no potential for efficient causality. The implication of this is that we have no free will for this would involve a causal efficacy outside of God which is precisely what occasionalism denies. So everything activity that occurs is directly an act of God. When you will something you are not willing anything at all but are merely a puppet of God. And when you throw a match into your barbeque grill it is not the flamability of the lighter fluid that "causes" a flame to emerge but this too is a direct action of God.

So to put it simply, God is the only efficient cause in the entire chain of cause and effect that we observe in the universe including our own thoughts and actions. Taken to an epistemological extreme, there is in fact no physical world at all and the impressions that we have upon our senses are not caused by exterior material phenomenon but are sort of illusions caused by God. I suppose you could think of this as suggesting that we are in the matrix.

Anyway, occasionalism is not Catholic.