The Sacrament of Confession

[Guest Rick777]

One of my family memebers is positive that a person doesnt need to go to confession. She says that all you need to do to be saved is ask for forgiveness. This ones really buggin me, any help?

[phatcatholic]

when she says "to be saved" does she really mean "saved" as in, to obtain salvation, or does she mean "to be forgiven of your sin"?

[Bradford]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 25 2006, 05:04 PM']when she says "to be saved" does she really mean "saved" as in, to obtain salvation, or does she mean "to be forgiven of your sin"?
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Sounds like a Protestant, so I'd assume they're talking about eternal Salvation.

Take thier Protestant translation (To prove this isn't soem Catholics-changed-the-Scriptures trick)

Show her John 20:23. See how she explains away what Jesus actually said-All Protestants MUST twist this inot meaning something else than what it (and the context) shows... that the Apostles had the authority to forgive sins.

Look at the ECF's, there's lots of quotes and evidence of the early Bishops granting absolution (Though only once in a person's life in those days...)

There's more, but I'm exhausted.

[thessalonian]

An excellent book on this is "Lord Have Mercy" by Scott Hahn. Unfortunately I don't have it with me but there is a wealth of information regarding confession in scripture. First of all no Jew in the Old Testament ever performed his sacrifice without confessinng his sin to the priest.

John 20 has been discussed above. It should also be noted in that regard that when Christ says "recieve the Holy Spirit" he is indicating that this authority has the authority and power of God behind it. This is supported by the explanation of Matt 9 below. One charge she may level is that the scriptures say "only God can forgive sins.". It is true that it does. The priest however is not forgiving apart from God's sins but is in the confessional "in persona Christi", in the person of Christ. Christ through him forgives the sin. There is no power in the priest to forgive sins except in union with Christ through the ministry granted to him. The Apostle Paul says

2 Cor 5
18: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;

Man is reconciled to God through other men. The forigiveness of sins was given to the Apostles in John 20,21. Also not the authority over man in Matt 16 when Jesus gives the 12 power to bind and loose sins as well.

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This is another interesting verse. Note in John 20:21 it says "RECIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT" and he "breathed on them". God only breathed on man once in history before this. That was back in Genesis when he brought Adam to life. Now he breathes on the Apostles giving them spiritual life.

6: who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.

One more thing about men forgiving sins. In Matt 9 there is an interesting exchange.

2: And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven."
3: And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming."
4: But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
5: For which is easier, to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Rise and walk'?
6: But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" -- he then said to the paralytic -- "Rise, take up your bed and go home."
7: And he rose and went home.
8: When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

What authority is given to men? Well quite clearly in context if you go back to v. 6 it is the authority to forgive sins. However note it says the authority was given to "men". That's plural. Christ was a man. So who are the other men that have such power. Considering that this was written after the resurrection, I think the Apostles, who passed it on through the bishops and priests to us today are a pretty good guess. Jesus said in matt 28 that all authority was given to him and so he was giving it to the apostles so that they might go out and preach the forgiveness of sins to the world. The apostles cured the sick and cast out demons just as Christ did, but not of themselves but by the Holy Spirit working through them.. They had these powers, yet somehow protestants think that Christ held back the power to forgive sins. It continues today in the confessional.

I hope that helps.

Blessings

Edited January 26, 2006 by thessalonian

[HopeToLive]

Is you family member a Catholic?

I know I'm kinda new to this board. But I'm willing to dive right in.

If they are Catholic, then maybe they are a little like I have been. It isn't the Church Teaching that is the issue, but something more in themselves... The humility it takes to admit your sins out loud. Even if you truely believe that it is Jesus there with you and not a priest you know, it's hard. And I know that I have found every excuse in the book, even trying to convince myself that I didn't really NEED to go, to avoid what I had to do.
I dunno..... do you have the kind of relationship with her to talk more deeply about it? Or is the struggle you are having with your own thoughts about the Sacrament?
Diana

[thessalonian]

I should add there is another arguement you will be hit with. "Why go to a priest when I can go directly to Christ". Don't get caught in the false dichotomy trap here. Acknowledge that we can and do go to Christ to confess our sins. Our venial sins can always be forgiven by perfect contrition and by the Mass. We do not have to confess them though it is highly recommended to recieve the graces of the sacrament of confession to help overcome them. Mortal sins may be forgiven by perfect contrition but even if they are they still need to be confessed. This is for our benefit that we may know for certain that we are forgiven. The sacrament of confession however does not mean we don't go to Christ to confess our sins. Rather as I said above it is "in persona Christi". Christ is there with the priest, hears our sins and we know that if the priest forgives so does he. I never go to confession thinking about the priest and whether he will forgive me or not. My expressions of sorrow and repentence are to Christ. The priest speaks for him in giving me absolution. Thus it is a false dichotomy to say "why can't I go directly to Christ instead of to the priest". These traps lead to endless circles of debate for us Catholics with Protestants. Better to not get in to them.

One final note. Forgiveness apart from a priest requires perfect contrition. This is very difficult to attain and requires to sorrow with a firm resolve not to committ the sin. The confessional gives us certainty of forgiveness. This is for our benefit.

Blessings

Edited January 26, 2006 by thessalonian

[phatcatholic]

just want to clarify two minor things:

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jan 26 2006, 11:14 AM']The priest however is not forgiving apart from God's sins but is in the confessional "in persona Christi", in the person of Christ.  [/quote]
i think what you meant to say was: "The priest however is not forgiving sins apart from God, but is in the confessional.....". the way you have it originally worded makes it sound like God has sins ("God's sins").


[quote]Also not the authority over man in Matt 16 when Jesus gives the 12 power to bind and loose sins as well.[/quote]
this should be Mat [b]18[/b]. in the 16th chapter, Peter is given his supreme authority. in the 18th chapter, the other apostles are seen sharing in it.

the rest was great

[thessalonian]

"God's sins"

I just put those in there to see if anyone would read it. Ya, that's it.

Thanks for the corrections.

[hope4thenew]

Scott Hahn with Father Mitch Pacwa on "EWTN Live," 6/18/03

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=el06182003.ra"]the healing power of confession[/url]

there is a slight buzz thru-out this interview...but it may b of some help...
and as 'thessalonian' said, Scott Hahn's 'Lord Have Mercy' is a good one

[phatcatholic]

i have some great talks on confession in the "Audio Downloads" section of the entry in the directory on the Sacrament of Confession:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/554"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/554[/url]

if you learn better by hearing something explained to you, instead of reading about it yourself, these audio sections will be of great help to you. there is one in every entry of the directory

[Guest Rick777]

Thanks all! Sorry for such a long reply. Heres some details about how this whole conversation came to be:

A few months ago one of my sisters left the Catholic Church(now all members of my immediate family are fallen away Catholics except for my Dad) and she told us all to come to her sons "dedication" to God at her new Evangelical Church. I didnt feel it was right for me to go so I called my sis and very politely(sp?) explained to her why I wasnt gonna go. She was really mad and at a family gathering the next day she told everyone I wasnt going and that she was really hurt. My Auntie(who is a Protestant now) turned to me and said that Christ did not establish one church and all a person needs to do to go to Heaven is ask for forgiveness. I went through some passages with her and she just said that Christ is not reserved for one denomination.....I then explained the sacraments. She told me flat out that they were all symbolic, the Eucharist is not Jesus, and confession is great but nobody has to go to it, and last of all she said that the Pharisees were all gung ho about thier laws too.......so she implied I sounded like a Pharisee.

Edited January 27, 2006 by Rick777

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Rick777' date='Jan 26 2006, 11:36 PM']Thanks all! Sorry for such a long reply. Heres some details about how this whole conversation came to be:

A few months ago one of my sisters left the Catholic Church(now all members of my immediate family are fallen away Catholics except for my Dad) and she told us all to come to her sons "dedication" to God at her new Evangelical Church. I didnt feel it was right for me to go so I called my sis and very politely(sp?) explained to her why I wasnt gonna go. She was really mad and at a family gathering the next day she told everyone I wasnt going and that she was really hurt. My Auntie(who is a Protestant now) turned to me and said that Christ did not establish one church and all a person needs to do to go to Heaven is ask for forgiveness. I went through some passages with her and she just said that Christ is not reserved for one denomination.....I then explained the sacraments. She told me flat out that they were all symbolic, the Eucharist is not Jesus, and confession is great but nobody has to go to it, and last of all she said that the Pharisees were all gung ho about thier laws too.......so she implied I sounded like a Pharisee.
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Christ did establish one Church. Men established the others.

And somewhere in the Gospel(s), (I'm not sure where) , Jesus is telling His followers that in oder to go to Heaven they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. And that day he lost many followers.
You should point out to your aunt that Jesus didn't go back and say "Hey it was just symbolic, it's not really My Body and Blood! That was just symbolism!" He let them go.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Rick777' date='Jan 26 2006, 10:36 PM'] My Auntie(who is a Protestant now) turned to me and said that Christ did not establish one church and all a person needs to do to go to Heaven is ask for forgiveness. I went through some passages with her and she just said that Christ is not reserved for one denomination.....[/quote]But Christ did establish [b]one [/b]Church. For one there cannot be many bodies of Christ, there is only one true body (Eph 4:4). There is one fold and one shepherd (Jn 10:16). Now she might say that all Christians are one fold regardless of denomination, but this is not what we are told. We are actually told to avoid those who cause dissension (Rom 16:7) and the we are to be of one mind and one heart (Phil 2:2). St. Paul urges us that there be no divisons among us (1 Cor 13:13).

It was to the Apostles at the Last Supper that He entrusted Himself to in the Eucharist, and poured out the Holy Spirit on them at Pentecost. Christ Himself established the Church when He first chose the twelve then sent them to proclaim the Good News. That was pretty much selecting the leadership of a new community and then telling them to recruit for this one Body. The Church must be one for it is the family of God. Through our [b]one [/b] Baptism we are made into [b]one [/b] faith (1 Cor 12:13), and it is through this [b]one [/b]Baptism that we are made sons and daughters of God. If there was not one true Church, then God's family would not be one, and would not be a family at all. It is through out faith and Baptism that we become co-heirs with Christ. Without that unity with Christ, and therefore to eachother, we have no hope for eternal life with our Lord. If your aunt wishes to say that there is no [b]one [/b] Church to which Christ died and then emptied Himself as food for, then your aunt is denying the very existence of God's family.

The Church is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. It was founded in 33 A.D. by Jesus Christ Himself and continues to this day to call all to divine sonship through Christ. It is because Christ gave Himself so completly to the Church that we, though many, are made into one Body of Christ (Rom 12:5). You can deny the Roman Catholic Church, but you MUST not deny that Christ established [b]one [/b]Body and calls all into [b]one[/b]!

[Guest Rick777]

Thanks you guys, I'm takin plenty of notes.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Rick777' date='Jan 27 2006, 12:36 AM']My Auntie(who is a Protestant now) turned to me and said that Christ did not establish one church and all a person needs to do to go to Heaven is ask for forgiveness. I went through some passages with her and she just said that Christ is not reserved for one denomination.....[/quote]
nutty addressed this [i][b]brilliantly[/b][/i]. i hate to add to it b/c that implies some deficienty in what he presented, and there simply is none (good job bro ).

however, i would like to approach this from a different angle and remind your aunt of this: no one is claiming that Christ is reserved for one denomination. she has set up a straw-man, a caricature of the Church, and you can tell that she has strong feelings regarding this "Catholic Church" that she has built up in her mind. remind her that you never questioned the fact that Jesus can and does effect the lives of all people, and in a myriad of ways. BUT, "earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still [i][b]more excellent way[/b][/i]" (1 Cor 12:31). explain to her that you have no doubt that she has a relationship with Jesus and even that He saves men from other denominations, but that you believe we experience this relationship "more excellently" in the Catholic Church.

of course, she will want to know why u think that, in which case you would explain to her that in the Catholic Church we have [i][b]seven sure ways[/b][/i] of receiving the grace of the Lord. the number seven itself is a sign of completeness. but more importantly, we don't have to wrestle w/ questions like:

--is this really grace, or just my feelings?
--i don't feel inspired, have i really received his grace?
--was my prayer for forgiveness contrite enough? did he really hear me?
--is Jesus really present at this service (or "celebration" or "gathering")?
--is this minister really speaking the truth?

instead of the material world--and our own selves--getting in the way of his work, he uses these very things to bring us back to him. so we have assurance that when we participate in the sacraments, we have truly received his grace. this is entirely biblical, and you will need to be prepared to share some scripture verses w her:

[b]--[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/540"]Baptism[/url]
--[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/551"]Confession and Penance[/url]
--[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/575"]Holy Eucharist[/url] / [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/579"]Sacrifice of the Mass[/url]
--[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/587"]Confirmation[/url]
--[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/603"]The Christian Family and Holy Matrimony[/url]
--[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/623"]Holy Orders and the Priesthood[/url]
--[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/631"]Suffering and the Anointing of the Sick[/url][/b]

also, point out to her that in the Eucharist, Catholics experience Jesus Christ in an unparalleled way. there is nothing in the protestant body--or the entire universe for that matter--that even touches what we experience in the Mass. it is truly the more excellent way.

[quote]I then explained the sacraments. She told me flat out that they were all symbolic, the Eucharist is not Jesus, and confession is great but nobody has to go to it, and last of all she said that the Pharisees were all gung ho about thier laws too.......so she implied I sounded like a Pharisee.[right][snapback]867205[/snapback][/right][/quote]
ask her to prove this if the occasion ever arises. i assure you she cannnot. see the links i provided above. also, go here for more on the sacraments:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/43"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/43[/url]


[quote name='missionseeker' date='Jan 27 2006, 01:12 AM']And somewhere in the Gospel(s), (I'm not sure where) , Jesus is telling His followers that in oder to go to Heaven they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. And that day he lost many followers.[right][snapback]867236[/snapback][/right][/quote]
John 6!! John 6!! every catholic must be acquainted w/ this Gospel.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 27 2006, 10:46 AM']i hate to add to it b/c that implies ...[/quote]
No, by all means phat please. Sometimes I get a little frustrated with such statement and go off. You presented the other half of the story that we needed.

There are divisions in Christianity although Christ established one Church. While the Catholic Church does possess the fullness of Truth, we must remember that where two or three are gathered in His name, He is there. Christ is present to non-Catholics, but that does not mean that they are on equal footing for they do not enjoy the same bond that Catholics do via the Eucharist. I believe that it is best summed up here: [quote]God has bound salvation to the sacrament[s], but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. [/quote]

Edited January 27, 2006 by Paphnutius

[journeyman]

like Rick, I'm making notes . . . If I ever feel particularly smart, I'm going to have to get a screen name that starts with "P" . . . you guys are awesome

[missionseeker]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Jan 27 2006, 08:19 PM']like Rick, I'm making notes . . . If I ever feel particularly smart, I'm going to have to get a screen name that starts with "P" . . . you guys are awesome
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[phatcatholic]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Jan 27 2006, 09:19 PM']like Rick, I'm making notes . . . If I ever feel particularly smart, I'm going to have to get a screen name that starts with "P" . . . you guys are awesome
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[/quote]
"pilgrimage-man"?

[missionseeker]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 27 2006, 11:46 AM']John 6!! John 6!! every catholic must be acquainted w/ this Gospel.
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