can homosexuals love each other?

[photosynthesis]

Lately with all of this controversy over the new Supreme Court candidates and gay marriage and [i]Brokeback Mountain[/i] out in theatres, I've found myself debating with my friends about homosexuality a lot. One of the main arguments gay culture uses is "But if they love each other, then doesn't it have to be good?"

I know what the truth is--that homosexuality is not real love and the lifestyle does not lead to real happiness.

The gay community tries to get people to think that homosexuals are all mostly looking to have lifelong, monogamous relationships... to move in with each other and adopt kids and whatnot. They try to make it look like heterosexuality But I've seen the inside of gay culture and that's not what it's really like. It seems like it's all about the sex, and relationships are just some kind of weird by-product... especially in gay male culture.

There's this one folk singer I like, and she happens to be a practicing lesbian. She wrote this one beautiful love song. Even though I know she's written about her love for a woman, it's a beautiful song that could apply to any kind of relationship. The song really captures the essence of what love really [i]feels [/i]like.

So... even if homosexuals feel affection for one another, and there are some elements of love in the relation... like self-sacrifice... the love can never be total because the relationship lacks complementarity and so there can never be total self-donation.

Is love ever present in homosexual relationships? is the love they have for one another legitimate? If it's not love, then what is it? [b]And how do we communicate this to homosexuals and supporters of homosexuality in a clear but charitable way?[/b]

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Before this thread goes any further I remind anyone posting on this thread that this is a sensitive issue and should be handled with maturity, charity and respect.

[Guest Rick777]

*thinks what song she may be talking about*

I believe that the love homosexuals feel for each other may be misplaced love. For example, if I as a young boy, and I grew up with only girls, wouldnt I reach out for a male companion? Wouldnt I want to be with other young boys? If maybe I didnt have a father too look up to wouldnt I search out for a fatherly figure in my life?After some time of being only with woman or little girls,I may think of myself more of a woman than a man, and I would lose the ability to properly be buddies with another man because I felt like I was a woman. I hope that made some sense.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jan 27 2006, 02:24 AM']Before this thread goes any further I remind anyone posting on this thread that this is a sensitive issue and should be handled with maturity, charity and respect.
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thanks!

[quote name='Rick777' date='Jan 27 2006, 02:25 AM']*thinks what song she may be talking about*

I believe that the love homosexuals feel for each other may be misplaced love. For example, if I as a  young boy,  and I grew up with only girls, wouldnt I reach out for a male companion? Wouldnt I want to be with other young boys? If maybe I didnt have a father too look up to wouldnt I search out for a fatherly figure in my life?After some time of being only with woman or little girls,I may think of  myself more of a woman than a man, and I would lose the ability to properly be buddies with another man because I felt like I was a woman. I hope that made some sense.
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that's a good point... I imagine sexual confusion must contribute to it somehow...

[kamiller42]

Of course love is good. God made it. As we learned in the book of Genesis, everything God makes is good. God also established an order, an order from chaos, a dark abyss. He gave everything its proper time and place. He created man. He then created woman. Both a part of His order. He gave us love as a gift. As a gift, we are obliged to use it according to His will.

Love is beautiful. It's pleasing. So was the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. In Genesis 3:6, it uses the words "good", "pleasing", and "desirable". Sounds like love, doesn't it? But is something right simply because it feels right? Adam and Eve soon discovered that's not so.

I might desire to eat 5 gallons of ice cream because it tastes good, but should I? Is it physically good for me? The same type of question should be asked about homosexuality and any other temptation. Is it spiritually good for me?

[Didacus]

I believe the love is there; genuine friendship, in many cases.

However;

1. The homosexual culture confuses love and sexual relationships.

2. Although their affection for one another may be genuine, the homosexual act remains intrisictely disordered.

3. FACT: You do not have to engage in a sexual act in order to love someone.

A point that can be brougt to light when discussing this with others is that the Church does not consider homosexuals as 'different'. They, the homosexuals, consider themselves different. Contrary to popular opinion, it is precisely because the church sees them as they do all human beings that homosexuals cannot be married to members of the same-sex for example; because the rules apply to everyone equally.

Homosexuals are the same as ourselves; they love, they hope, they cry, they laugh ect... In every essential aspect of humanity they are the same. In every dignity as human beings, they are the same as every one else, and equal before God.

However, the homosexual act remains disordered. Homosexuals must understand the difference between the beings that they are, and their actions; something several amongst this community refuse to understand (not do not undertand, nor cannot understand, but willingly refuse to understand).

Finally, it is very difficult, if not sometimes impossible to discuss this affair with some homosexuals. Many times, in my own past experience, the best thing that can be done is offer a few words of good will and prayers.

[Jaime]

[quote]1. The homosexual culture confuses love and sexual relationships.

2. Although their affection for one another may be genuine, the homosexual act remains intrisictely disordered.

3. FACT: You do not have to engage in a sexual act in order to love someone.[/quote]

Good assessment Didace

I would add that all these things can apply to heterosexual relationships as well.



The distinction being that heterosexual relationships have the potential of propulgation of the species. For a sexual relationship to be truly sacred, it has to be able to incorporate that.


(edit: Abby pointed this out to me)

Edited January 27, 2006 by jaime

[Sojourner]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jan 27 2006, 07:57 AM']Good assessment Didace

I would add that all these things can apply to heterosexual relationships as well.

The distinction being that heterosexual relationships have the potential of propulgation of the species.  For a sexual relationship to be truly sacred, it has to be able to incorporate that.
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What he said.

[quote name='photosynthesis']The gay community tries to get people to think that homosexuals are all mostly looking to have lifelong, monogamous relationships... to move in with each other and adopt kids and whatnot. They try to make it look like heterosexuality But I've seen the inside of gay culture and that's not what it's really like. It seems like it's all about the sex, and relationships are just some kind of weird by-product... especially in gay male culture.[/quote]
One thing to remember is that the gay community is quite diverse. While there are indeed pockets of the community in which people are more focused on sex than on developing relationships (a comment that could just as easily be directed to heterosexuals, by the way) there are also pockets of the community that ARE focused on committed long-term relationships.

For example, we have a Metropolitan Community Church (a pro-gay denomination) here that's growing rapidly, and is populated largely by people who've been ostracized in other faith communities. They want loving relationships, they want children, they want to be vibrant participants in their community, and they're attracting lots of people. I sing with their music minister in my choir.

So I'd caution against making blanket statements about what the gay culture is "really like" ... your experience, while still valid, may not have given you a complete picture of what's going on in the overall community.

[Myles Domini]

My answer would be no. Because Love in its truest form is a theological virtue conveyed by grace and those in mortal sin cannot also be in Love. According to Ephesians 5 we should love as Christ loved us in marital relations but that only becomes possible through the grace poured out upon us in the Holy Spirit. Where sin is present the Spirit cannot be therefore homosexuals cannot love (and neither can heterosexuals if they do not live in a way which allows the grace of God to work in their lives).

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 27 2006, 08:41 AM']What he said.

[quote name='photosynthesis']The gay community tries to get people to think that homosexuals are all mostly looking to have lifelong, monogamous relationships... to move in with each other and adopt kids and whatnot. They try to make it look like heterosexuality But I've seen the inside of gay culture and that's not what it's really like. It seems like it's all about the sex, and relationships are just some kind of weird by-product... especially in gay male culture.[/quote]
One thing to remember is that the gay community is quite diverse. While there are indeed pockets of the community in which people are more focused on sex than on developing relationships (a comment that could just as easily be directed to heterosexuals, by the way) there are also pockets of the community that ARE focused on committed long-term relationships.

For example, we have a Metropolitan Community Church (a pro-gay denomination) here that's growing rapidly, and is populated largely by people who've been ostracized in other faith communities. They want loving relationships, they want children, they want to be vibrant participants in their community, and they're attracting lots of people. I sing with their music minister in my choir.

So I'd caution against making blanket statements about what the gay culture is "really like" ... your experience, while still valid, may not have given you a complete picture of what's going on in the overall community.
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Well, at least that's how it was in Baltimore. a lot of my gay male friends are not even in couples. They're in threesome, foursomes.... etc. I know a lot of gay couples that live together and are monogamous. They are out there, but it seems like the majority are more focused on sex without any strings attached.

Unfortunately, a lot of heterosexual men are like this as well.

[quote name='Myles' date='Jan 27 2006, 09:12 AM']My answer would be no. Because Love in its truest form is a theological virtue conveyed by grace and those in mortal sin cannot also be in Love. According to Ephesians 5 we should love as Christ loved us in marital relations but that only becomes possible through the grace poured out upon us in the Holy Spirit. Where sin is present the Spirit cannot be therefore homosexuals cannot love (and neither can heterosexuals if they do not live in a way which allows the grace of God to work in their lives).
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[photosynthesis]

[color=red][i]EDIT:[/i] The link posted below is not appropriate for children.[/color]

there was this funny Onion article a few years back....

[url="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491"]http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491[/url]

[quote]"I'd always thought gays were regular people, just like you and me, and that the stereotype of homosexuals as hedonistic, sex-crazed deviants was just a destructive myth," said mother of four Hannah Jarrett, 41, mortified at the sight of 17 tanned and oiled boys cavorting in jock straps to a throbbing techno beat on a float shaped like an enormous phallus. "Boy, oh, boy, was I wrong."[/quote]

I'm not saying that that's how all homosexuals are. But stereotypes happen for a reason.

[i]EDIT:[/i] The link I posted above is not appropriate for children.

[Didacus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jan 27 2006, 05:57 AM']Good assessment Didace

I would add that all these things can apply to heterosexual relationships as well.
The distinction being that heterosexual relationships have the potential of propulgation of the species.  For a sexual relationship to be truly sacred, it has to be able to incorporate that.
(edit: Abby pointed this out to me)
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Thank you for pointing that out hot stuff; it adds well to my comments that homosexuals are the same as us, just as we are the same as them.

In fact, when you think about it, there is no reason why 'homosexual' and 'heteroxeual' should form part of every day household language. such terms should have their place almost exclusively in medical and science books. Why should either be attributed to anyone? We can, however, talk of SSA.

[Didacus]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jan 27 2006, 10:14 AM']
[snip]

I'm not saying that that's how all homosexuals are.  But stereotypes happen for a reason.

[snip]

[/quote]

True or not I would be extremely careful with that statement in the future.


I would comment that although stereotypes exists for a reason;



1. These reasons are not always truthful

2. These reasons are not necessarily deserved by the groups who fall victim to them.

[Socrates]

The bottom line is that homosexual activity is disordered and cannot constitute true love.

Love does not need be sexual, nor does sex equal love.

Two men may love one another as brothers, yet have no homosexual attraction nor involvement with the other.

A man may truly love his daughter - this does not mean it would be ok for him to have sex with her.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='photosynthesis']They try to make it look like heterosexuality But I've seen the inside of gay culture and that's not what it's really like. It seems like it's all about the sex, and relationships are just some kind of weird by-product... especially in gay male culture.[/quote]

I'd just like you to keep in mind two things:

1. Homosexuality does not equal homosexual (/gay) culture.
2. It's not the gay culture that is focusing on sex in relationships, it's the whole modern culture.

Is it any wonder that gay culture is all about sex, when the only thing common to gays is the sex? That's like saying that the whole football culture is all about football. But I doubt many homosexuals are all about sex.

[quote name='photosynthesis']Is love ever present in homosexual relationships?[/quote]

Your question comes pretty close to saying that maybe homosexuals are incapable of love. Is that what you mean?

[quote name='photosynthesis']And how do we communicate this to homosexuals and supporters of homosexuality in a clear but charitable way?[/quote]

There is no charitable way to say that. Imagine someone telling you that you don't really love your mother or own child. And what can you even answer to that? Can you prove that you really love your child (or mother)?

[Didacus]

Semalsia, I must admit two things:

1. You do have a point that it should not be a wonder that the 'gay culture' is all about sex since that is what they all have in common.

2. Modern culture is just as 'fascinated' with sex in general, let it be heterosexual sex or any other variations thereof.


However, do not ignore the fact that as Catholics, we teach chastity for everyone, and do so equally; even in marriage chastity is in order.

Also, I do not believe that what is meant is that homosexuals are incapable of love all together. What is asked is that cna homosexuals enter into a profound love with each other as is shared between a married man and woman? the question might not have been asked properly, but I believe the majority of readers in this thread understood the main statement.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jan 27 2006, 07:19 PM']There is no charitable way to say that. Imagine someone telling you that you don't really love your mother or own child. And what can you even answer to that? Can you prove that you really love your child (or mother)?
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You are missing the point.
This certainly would not make it ok for one to have sex with his child or his mother!

[ironmonk]

[quote]Is love ever present in homosexual relationships? is the love they have for one another legitimate? [/quote]

Love is a gift from God. It is impossible for the kind of love that a man has for a woman to ever be between people of the same sex.

Some could have genuine brotherly love and be confused on their feelings.


[quote]If it's not love, then what is it?[/quote]

Lust. Attraction is developed. Just as some people like blonds with blue eyes... There is nothing biological that tells us what to find beauty in. Gender identification is very important in the early years of life. It is also good to clarify options for life when raising a child. We are programmed from things around us at such an early age. We see our children immitating what they see. As the Christ tells us that the eyes are the light of the soul, and if we fill them with darkness then that darkness will influence us. (St. Matt 6:22-23)Same sex attraction is a behavior disorder. It could be a symtom of other issues. I think the medical article "Homosexuality and Hope" explains it very well.
See it here:
[url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html[/url]


It is well worth the read in trying to understand same sex attraction.


[b]St. Matt 6:22 [/b]
"[color=red]The lamp of the body is the eye. If your eye is sound, your whole body will be filled with light; [/color]
[b]23 [/b][color=red]but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be in darkness. And if the light in you is darkness, how great will the darkness be.[/color]



God Bless,
ironmonk
www.CatholicSwag.com

[Akalyte]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jan 28 2006, 09:45 PM']Love is a gift from God. It is impossible for the kind of love that a man has for a woman to ever be between people of the same sex.

Some could have genuine brotherly love and be confused on their feelings.
Lust. Attraction is developed. Just as some people like blonds with blue eyes... There is nothing biological that tells us what to find beauty in. Gender identification is very important in the early years of life. It is also good to clarify options for life when raising a child. We are programmed from things around us at such an early age. We see our children immitating what they see. As the Christ tells us that the eyes are the light of the soul, and if we fill them with darkness then that darkness will influence us. (St. Matt 6:22-23)Same sex attraction is a behavior disorder. It could be a symtom of other issues. I think the medical article "Homosexuality and Hope" explains it very well.
See it here:
[url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html[/url]
It is well worth the read in trying to understand same sex attraction.
[b]St. Matt 6:22 [/b]
"[color=red]The lamp of the body is the eye. If your eye is sound, your whole body will be filled with light; [/color]
[b]23 [/b][color=red]but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be in darkness. And if the light in you is darkness, how great will the darkness be.[/color]
God Bless,
ironmonk
www.CatholicSwag.com
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LEave it to Ironmonk to make so much sense..haha

[Peacemaker02]

Okay I'm probably going to get flamed right off this site, but it is a chance that i feel i must take. I've been reading this post after being absent from this site for some time now. I've been thinking about what is going on in the world as far as homosexuals go. Now i'm Catholic, been my whole life. And i respect everyone's ideas and thoughts on the disscussion. Now that that is said and many of you have rolled your eyes.

As far as if the love is possible with homosexuals, i believe it is. I think that a woman can love a woman and a man can love a man. heterosexuals fall into the same crazy sexual catagories as homosexuals do with groups of 3 or 4 as one poster wrote. I so however think it is unfair to compare a Man loving his daughter and its not right to have sex with her (ultimatly incest) with a homosexual relationship.

Some of the people i look up to most as far as professionals in their field, entertainers (unassosiated with orientation), and teachers and friends are homosexuals.

I think everyone deserves love. I also feel that our God is a loving and forgiving God.

I realise this might cause you to flame me but as i said above it is a chance i'm willing to take to add my opinion to the table.

Peace