PhatPhred Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 anyway, those are my thoughts, and they explain how i vote the way i do. however, i am neither a theologian nor a political science major....................although i do see my stance as in-line w/ church thought. ur comments? i hope this helps..........pax christi, phatcatholic I also see your stance as in-line with the magisterium, but not the only way to be in-line with the magisterium. I have a slightly different take on the issue. A lot of the document you quoted was concerned with the actual laws that govern society, and it gave guidelines on what was the best way for a government to "become more just and more consistent with the dignity of the human person." I believe in voting for the person who can take us the closest in that direction. I view pro-life as the most important issue. Unlike you, I don't see any justification in ranking one life against another. I think that all aspects of pro-life are equally important: anti-abortion, anti-unjust-war, anti-unjust-captial-punishment, and anti-euthanasia. Thus, by my definition, there aren't very many pro-life politicians of either party out there. I don't follow your point about the theoretical possibility of a war without casualties. It's also theoretically possible that in a country were abortion is legal that not a single mother will choose to abort her unborn child. In the real world, neither of these has ever happened, not is it ever likely to. But by your logic, they should both be on the same level. Only government-required abortion (as in China's one child per family policy) would rate the highest level of importance. Next on my list are those issues relating to the poor and hungry. After that, are the issues that affect those that have enough to live comfortably.
PhatPhred Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 I am 100% faithful to the magisterium. That's good to hear. I thought that you were dissenting from the magisterium's teaching that Bush's war against Iraq was completely unjust. Sorry for the mistake.
PhatPhred Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 You know as well as I, that the Iraqi citizen already has life, while the unborn baby has about a 50-50% chance. You are probably safer in Iraq, than in the womb of an American female. This is very likely true. However, my argument against Bush is that he hasn't made the womb of an American female any safer (still a 50-50% chance), at the same time that he decided to made things much unsafer in Iraq.
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 That's good to hear. I thought that you were dissenting from the magisterium's teaching that Bush's war against Iraq was completely unjust. Sorry for the mistake. that's not the magisterium's teaching. that was the Pope's opinion. he didn't declare it from the Chair of St. Peter as a matter of Morals. he did not have all the intelligence as readily available to him. from the looks of it the scientists were lying on paper to Saddam telling him what he wanted to hear, that they had succeeded in their weopons of mass destruction programs. so on paper, it appeared they did. and the intelligence services therefore thought they did. i don't think it was an unjust war, chew on that. the Pope as a theologian said he didn't think that the war met St. Augustine's criteria. as an amateur theologian myself, i think it did. many other smart theologians thought it also did. i think the reason the Pope didn't think so was that he didn't have all the intelligence that Bush had. the Pope never declaired as a matter of faith or morals in the office of St. Peter that the war in Iraq was an unjust war. if it did, i'd take that as true. i'd consider it odd, since the gift of infallibility is rarely applied by the spirit to current events, otherwise St. Peter never would have ran away from the crucifixion denying Jesus 3 times. it's usually applied more to doctrine, saying certain actions are moral or immoral or that certain things must be believed by all Christians.
PhatPhred Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 that's not the magisterium's teaching. that was the Pope's opinion. The Magisterium is the living teaching authority of the Church which is entrusted to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. The teaching on the unjustness of the Iraqi war was most definitely a part of the magisterium. he didn't declare it from the Chair of St. Peter as a matter of Morals. This is the requirement for being an infallible teaching. Most of the teaching of the magisterium doesn't fall into this category (including, for example, the teaching on artificial birth control), but that doesn't make it optional. he did not have all the intelligence as readily available to him. [...] i don't think it was an unjust war, chew on that. Because the Pope's assessment wasn't based on all the secret intelligence that was available, good Catholics could disagree with that assessment. However, those who did disagree can't call themselves 100% faithful to the magisterium. Maybe 99.44%, which is good enough for Ivory soap. As it turned out, however, the Pope was absolutely right: There were no weapons of mass destruction found after we conquered Iraq.
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 Quote me the Magisterium teaching that the war in Iraq was unjust, please. thank you.
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 oh, and also, since when isn't the Church's teaching on birth control infallible. i got news for you: IT IS!
PhatPhred Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 Quote me the Magisterium teaching that the war in Iraq was unjust, please. thank you. How about here or here or here or here or here or here or here or here or any of the dozens of links from here.
PhatPhred Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 oh, and also, since when isn't the Church's teaching on birth control infallible. Certainly before 1968, because the committee that Pope Paul VI put together before issuing Humanae Vitae recommended by a large majority that the teaching be changed. The pope decided to overrule the committee, but the fact that the bishops on the committee even considered changing the teaching meant that it was not infallible. Even today the bishops in South Africa are endorsing the limited use of condoms. i got news for you: IT IS! Okay, now how about you showing me the place where a Pope declares, affirms, and defines the teaching on birth control to be infallible from the Chair of St. Peter.
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 Humanae Vitae is just the tip of a universal teaching of the whole Church, therefore it falls under the third requirement for infallibility "magisterium ordinadum" the teaching of the ordinary magisterium. because up until 1960 a consensus of Popes and bishops throughout the world have taught against it this teaching is the ordinary teaching of the Magisterium, and is thus infallible. Pax
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 oh and i found all of your statements from bishops opposing the war interesting, but certainly not an excersize of the magisterium. the magisterium deals with things like what a just war is, not what war is just.
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 Humanae Vitae is like the Catechism, to which i was dumfounded whether it was infallible or not. the answer is it is not, yet the teaching contained within it IS INFALLIBLE, for it has been declared the teaching of the ordinary Magisterium. same with Humanae Vitae. anyway, in Humae Vitae Equally to be excluded, as the teaching authority of the Church has frequently declared, is direct sterilization, whether perpetual or temporary, whether of the man or of the woman [15]. Similarly excluded is every action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, propose, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible [16]. it declares both of these things to be "as the teaching authority of the Church has frequently declared" thus Magesterium ordinadum. the teaching contained within Humanae Vitae is infallible teaching not by virtue of Humanae Vitae but by virtue of the constant 2000 year teaching authority of the Church which is affirmed and laid out in Humanae Vitae. here's a couple good articals http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHRIST/CONFATAL.TXT http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/2003/mar2003p16_1279.html
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 oh, and you know what, if you disagree further, start a thread in the Debate Table, cuz i just realized we kinda turned this into 1... disregard the disareement, people. nothing to see here. :cool:
cmotherofpirl Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 That's good to hear. I thought that you were dissenting from the magisterium's teaching that Bush's war against Iraq was completely unjust. Sorry for the mistake. THe Pope's opinion is not the same as a Magisterial teaching.
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 that's what i was tryin to say, he doesn't believe me i'm right about infallibility of anti-contraception doctrine though, right CMOM? thanx :cool:
cmotherofpirl Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 cmom, any justification for the different list? also, in a totally unrelated note, congratulations on passing 6,000 posts! (wow, i got my work ahead of me!) back on topic, i would like to know why u propose a diff. list then the one i suggested. thanks, phatcatholic abortion euthanasia legal system health care education capital punishment The first two are the most important because they are directly linked to the death of innocent human beings. The legal system because they are the ones inventing/passin/enforcing/defending these laws, the health care system because they are implementing these laws. Laws concerning capital punishment need to be clarified so everyone gets fair and equal treatment under the law.
PhatPhred Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 oh, and you know what, if you disagree further, start a thread in the Debate Table, cuz i just realized we kinda turned this into 1... disregard the disareement, people. nothing to see here. I've created the topic Magisterium, Iraqi War, And Birth Control in Debate Table.
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