STILLBORN BABIES?!

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 4 2006, 01:12 AM']Sir, Look in the third-to-last post I just posted.
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Ah. The answer would be 'no', then.

[Paphnutius]

Is this the article that someone was referring to earlier?[quote]Theological Commission Studying Limbo

Will Publish Document on Question

VATICAN CITY, DEC. 2, 2005 (Zenit.org).- The International Theological Commission announced that it will publish a document on children who die without being baptized.

The question of limbo has been one of the arguments addressed by the annual plenary session of the commission, which met in the Vatican until today.

Archbishop William Levada, president of the commission and prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, told Vatican Radio that the discussion on the existence of limbo "has been very useful."

"One can hope that in a reasonably brief time the study undertaken by the Theological Commission will have a positive result given the eventual publication of a document in this regard," he explained.

The documents of this commission are not part of the Church's magisterium. They are intended to help the Holy See, especially the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, to examine doctrinal questions of great importance.

"In the present moment of cultural relativism and religious pluralism, the number of children who are not baptized increases considerably. In this situation, the ways to attain salvation seem ever more complicated and problematic," said the archbishop.

Salvation for all

The Church is conscious of the fact that salvation "can only be attained in Christ through the spirit. But it cannot fail to reflect, as mother and teacher, on the fate of men created in the image of God, and in a particular way of the weakest and those who still do not have the use of reason and freedom," said the American prelate.

[b]Jesuit Father Luis Ladaria, secretary-general of the commission, explained on Vatican Radio "there is no dogmatic definition" of limbo.

"There is no Catholic doctrine that is binding," he said. "We know that during many centuries it was thought that children went to limbo, where they enjoyed a natural happiness, but they did not have the vision of God.

"Because of recent developments, not only theological but also of the magisterium, this belief is in crisis today." [/b]
There are keys to understand the question, said Father Ladaria: "We must begin with the fact that God wants the salvation of all and does not want to exclude any one; we must base ourselves on the fact that Christ died for all men and that the Church is a universal sacrament of salvation, as the Second Vatican Council teaches.

"Therefore, if we begin from these premises, the problem of the need of baptism is framed in a broader context."[/quote]

Edited February 4, 2006 by Paphnutius

[Resurrexi]

[quote]QUOTE(StThomasMore @ Feb 4 2006, 12:06 AM)You think I care what the Pope says if it is not infallable or darn close to infallable?



If that's the case why are you so adamant about Limbo? This is not a defined dogma nor is it anywhere near infallible [/quote]

No, no, no! I said that wrong! I care about everything the popes from AD 33- AD 1965 said. It's anything the Pope said that wasnt infallable AFTER 1965 that I dont care about

[quote]A table is not allowed for Mass, or it shouldn't be. An altar is not a table and it's unfair to say that the Novus Ordo's altar should be equated with a table because some people with faulty theology say so.[/quote]

ugh! alot of the more liberal Novus Ordo parishes' Altars are tables. And by the way, I have to go to the NO half of the time, so I know.

[qfnol31]

Ahh, but the abuses do not mean the norm.

I whine about stuff like that all the time...

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:24 PM'] It's anything the Pope said that wasnt infallable AFTER 1965 that I dont care about[/quote]So I was right. It does matter to you when a person was Pope. I suppose Tradition stopped in that year?

[missionseeker]

Hey Look, the Holy Father [i]was[/i] part of it. Does that count?

[quote]Meeting Nov. 28-Dec. 2 at the Vatican, the International Theological Commission, a group of theologians led by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger until his election as Pope Benedict XVI, completed its work on a statement regarding "the fate of babies who have died without baptism."[/quote]

[rkwright]

where do such extreme kids at such a young age come from???

Everytime I read these posts I don't know whether to cry or scream or pray...



I'll get my rosary...

[Resurrexi]

[QUOTE]Salvation for all [/QUOTE

Have you all heard of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (and no I'm not talking about the user who posts here)? It means "Outside the Church there is No Salvation." It is a dogma that I firmly hold to. That means I believe that no Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan, Neo-Pagan, Protostant, Greek Orthodox, or person who has not been Baptized by Water or Blood or Desire cannot enter Heaven. It is a very contraversial belief, but I hold strong to it. The Holy See should hold strong to it more.

[qfnol31]

Umm, most of the Christians you mentioned are Baptized...

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 4 2006, 12:22 AM']Is this the article that someone was referring to earlier?
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i think that's the one.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]where do such extreme kids at such a young age come from??? [/quote]

www.fisheaters.com

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Umm, most of the Christians you mentioned are Baptized... [/quote]

non-Catholic Christians deny teachings of the Church and therefore are heretics and commit a mortal sin and cannot be saved.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:30 PM']Have you all heard of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (and no I'm not talking about the user who posts here)? It means "Outside the Church there is No Salvation." It is a dogma that I firmly hold to. That means I believe that no Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan, Neo-Pagan, Protostant, Greek Orthodox, or person who has not been Baptized by Water or Blood or Desire cannot enter Heaven. It is a very contraversial belief, but I hold strong to it. [b]The Holy See should hold strong to it more[/b].
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You mis understood what they were saying. They were not saying that all will be saved. They were saying that it is God's will for all to be saved (i.e. He died for all vs many). But not all will be saved as you mentioned by pointing out EENS. I am not quite sure if you understand Baptism of desire. Perhaps we should discuss the post I made with the CCC which is authoritative no? I hope you read the Apostolic Constitution. Do you think that a person who is Pagan on an island in the middle of no-where that has never heard of Christ because no one has brought him the Gospel can be saved at all?

You are critiquing Rome now?

[missionseeker]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 4 2006, 12:34 AM']non-Catholic Christians deny teachings of the Church and therefore are heretics and commit a mortal sin and cannot be saved.
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Heresy is the d[b]eliberate[/b] denial of Doctrine.
Most non-Catholic Christians do not even know Catholic doctrine and therefore cannot, in the true sense of the word be called heretics.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='missionseeker' date='Feb 3 2006, 11:39 PM']Heresy is the d[b]eliberate[/b] denial of  Doctrine.
Most non-Catholic Christians do not even know Catholic doctrine and therefore cannot, in the true sense of the word be called heretics.
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Indeed. You are failing to make a distinction between a formal heretic and a material heretic. Your everyday protestant is a material heretic and not a formal one, therefore usually not in mortal sin due to heresy.

Back to the matter at hand...Do you conceed that the CCC is authoritative? If so then please reconcile the Baltimore Catechism with the CCC.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Paphnutius

[KnightofChrist]

[color=red]A unborn Child that is aborted or that is stillborn goes to heaven no doubt! They are innocent only having origal sin, God, being a just and wise and mercyful God is not going to send these children to hell or "Limbo"[/color]

[color=blue]StThomasMore - My kind sir, There IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE IN AN ABORTION! The mom probably dosent care about the salvation of her infant's soul if the is aborting the infant! you sir, are falling into heresy by believing that.[/color]


[color=red]I am falling into heresy? Yet you are the one denining the Popes after 1965. It is not heresy to believe a innocent child goes to heaven. The mother may not care for the salvation of the child but God does He Desires for the child to be baptized He Desires for the child to go to heaven. Since there was no way the child could be baptize it is not the fault of the child that she or he was not, so God being mercyful would not and does not punish the child. God is not going to punish a wee babe. God will not abort their soul. There is no limbo it does not exist and God does not punish inocents or send them to hell.[/color]

Edited February 4, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[missionseeker]

[quote]The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."
Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point. [/quote]

that's before 1965.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Back to the matter at hand...Do you conceed that the CCC is authoritative? If so then please reconcile the Baltimore Catechism with the CCC. [/quote]

The CCC is partially not authoritive. It was NOT NEEDED IN THE FIRST PLACE! look at all the Catechisms we already had! for the beginner: The Baltimore Catechism. For More Intermediate: The Catechism of St Pius X. And for the more well-read: The Catechism of the Council of Trent. The Catechism of the Council of Trent is amazing! it is probably the best Catechism you can buy! It is 25 times better that the CCC and it is about the same thickness! You should all really get a refund for your CCC and get instead the CCT!

[rkwright]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 4 2006, 12:32 AM']www.fisheaters.com
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well theres your problem... you've been catechized by a group on the internet. I never knew such extremist groups even existed until I saw on here and some other websites.

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Feb 4 2006, 12:46 AM'][color=red]A unborn Child that is aborted or that is stillborn goes to heaven no doubt! They are innocent only having origal sin, God, being a just and wise and mercyful God is not going to send these children to hell or "Limbo"[/color]

[color=blue]StThomasMore - My kind sir, There IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE IN AN ABORTION! The mom probably dosent care about the salvation of her infant's soul if the is aborting the infant! you sir, are falling into heresy by believing that.[/color]
[color=red]I am falling into heresy?  Yet you are the one denining the Popes after 1965.  It is not heresy to believe a innocent child goes to heaven.  The mother may not care for the salvation of the child but God does He Desires for the child to be baptized He Desires for the child to go to heaven.  Since there was no way the child could be baptize it is not the fault of the child that she or he was not, so God being mercyful would not and does not punish the child.  God is not going to punish a wee babe.  God will not abort their soul.  There is no limbo it does not exist and God does not punish inocents or send them to hell.[/color]
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I think Myles pointed out on a different thread one time that these aborted babies could be cases of Baptism by Blood? I seem to remember him saying that...