Medjugorje: Another View

[Aloysius]

[quote]"God presides over all religions as a king controls his subjects, through his priests and ministers. ( Svetozar Krljevic O.F.M., The Apparitions of Our Lady of Medjugorje, Franciscan Herald Press, 1984)

Seer Ivanka Ivankovic: "The Madonna always stresses that there is but one God and that people have enforced unnatural separation. One cannot truly believe, be a true Christian, if he does not respect other religions as well." ( The Apparitions of Our Lady of Medjugorje, Franciscan Herald Press, 1984)

Seer Ivanka Ivankovic: "The Madonna said that religions are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by her Son." The Apparitions of Our Lady of Medjugorje, Franciscan Herald Press, 1984)

Question: "Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?

Seer Vicka Ivankovic: "No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son." (Janice T. Connell, The Visions of the Children, The Apparitions of the Blessed Mother at Medjugorje, St. Martin's Press, August 1992)[/quote]

If these are true quotes, they are heresy plain and simple. Especially the last one. And Mary doesn't teach heresy.

The Catholic Church still firmly believes that everyone on the planet earth is called by God to be Catholic. The Councils of Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II teach this. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this. The above quotes are rejections of what has been taught not only by the universal ordinary magisterium for 2000 years, but specifically of things taught in present times by the Second Vatican Council and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

If the seers say Mary says this, then the seers are in some way disconnected from Mary. They either heard her grossly wrong, or they didn't hear or see her at all.

That's what it all comes down to. Whether or not anyone had any personal conversion, miracle, or otherwise blessing through their experience at Medjurjorge (which could very well be attributed to God and the Blessed Virgin making the best out of a bad situation), if the above represents the message then the message is false.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I am suprised the_rev has not commented yet. Didn't he have a rosary turn gold in connection with Medjugorje?

[avemaria40]

can someone please explain to me what happened at Medjugorje? I have no idea what's going on.

[annabelle87]

Personally, I find that I lean towards what thessalonian said.

I have to say that unapproved apparitions are always a touchy subject. It's setting foot on unknown territory and we can't be sure what lies there. This doesn't mean it's dangerous, but it also doesn't mean it isn't. It is important not to be quick to rule either way. In our culture there is a tendency to want to know now rather than later what is black or white, hot or cold, fact or fiction. Truth is, these things take time. There is a lot of "grey" that needs to be sorted out, and it is very likely that we will not live to see the day Medjugorje is approved or condemned by the church.

It isn't healthy to become obsessed with apparitions, signs, and wonders as people tend to do. But it also isn't healthy to be completely shut off to the possibility that it could be authentic. There are many bishops and clergy that hold Medjugorje in high regard. There are many who oppose it. Officialy, the church has not ruled either way...and until it does, none of us can really say anything for sure. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bayside condemned?)

All that being said, I recommend Randall Sullivan's [i]Miracle Detective[/i]. It gives extensive information on the subject, whatever "side" one may be on. Sullivan, a journalist, was neither Catholic nor a believer in the divine, just curious when he began this book in 1994. For 8 years he extensively researched and wrote with an open mind. He met with various clergy, the well-respected Fr. Groeschel among others.

God bless.

[annabelle87]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Feb 10 2006, 03:45 PM']can someone please explain to me what happened at Medjugorje? I have no idea what's going on. 
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"Međugorje is a village in the Herzegovina municipality of Čitluk, today part of the Herzegovina-Neretva Canton of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It has become famous because of a series of alleged sightings of the Virgin Mary by six young people. It should be noted, however, that the Catholic church has not approved these apparitions.

The First Day
On June 24th, 1981, at about 6 pm, six young people - Ivanka Ivanković, Mirjana Dragićević, Vicka Ivanković, Ivan Dragićević, Jakov Čolo and Marija Pavlović - allegedly saw on the hill called Crnica, several hundred meters above the place called Podbrdo, a young woman with a child in her arms who gave them a sign with her hand to come nearer. Surprised and scared, they did not approach her.


The Second Day
On the 25th of June 1981, the children agreed to meet once again at the same place that Our Lady had previously appeared in the hope of seeing her again. All of a sudden there was a flash of light. The children looked up and saw Our Lady, this time without the child. She was smiling and joyful and was indescribably beautiful. With her hands she gestured to them to come closer. The children braced themselves and went up to her. They immediately fell to their knees and began to pray the "Our Father," Hail Mary" and "Gloria Patri". Our Lady prayed together with them except for when they prayed the "Hail Mary".

After the prayer she began to speak with the children. Ivanka, first of all, asked her about her mother who had died two months previously. And Mirjana asked Our Lady for some sign to be given to show to the people that they were neither lying nor crazy, as some people had said.

Our Lady finally left the children with the words,” God be with you, my angels!" Before that, when the children asked her if they would see her the following day, she replied by nodding her head.

According to the visionaries, the whole encounter was indescribable. On that day two of the children, which made up the previous group were missing: Ivan Ivanković and Milka Pavlović. They were replaced by two others: Marija Pavlović and Jakov Čolo. And from that day onward according to these six children, Our Lady regularly appears to them. Milka Pavlović and Ivan Ivanković, who were present on the first day of apparitions, did not see Our Lady again, even though they returned to the apparition site, in the hope of seeing her.



The Ten Secrets
Each of the six visionaries has said that they have received, or are in the process of receiving ten secrets each from the Virgin Mary. Some of these secrets are the same across all of the visionaries. Others are personal secrets for particular visionaries. At least ten of these secrets are for the world. Before the first secret, a priest chosen by one of the visionaries will reveal the date and event to the world. Despite being called secrets, some information has been given by the visionaries about the secrets.

Criticism
The local bishops, especially Bishop Ratko Peric, have strongly condemned Međjugorje as a false apparition (read Bishop Peric's latest statement). The Vatican has not issued a definitive decision on the approval or disapproval of these apparitions.

Some say that the Church's criteria, which must be followed in order to prove that an apparition is authentic or not, is not being regarded by Međjugorje faithful, believing discernment must be used, and the teachings of the Church concerning private revelations must be respected.

Some Medjugorje supporters have claimed that Pope John Paul II expressed a wish to go there himself. This seems, unlikely, however, given the Vatican's own scepticism about the alleged sightings. "

[url="http://www.medjugorje.com/"]http://www.medjugorje.com/[/url]

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='thedude' date='Feb 10 2006, 08:42 PM']I am suprised the_rev has not commented yet.  Didn't he have a rosary turn gold in connection with Medjugorje?
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The devil appeared to St Martin of Tours adorned with gold too. As Al says if the messages reported were the message of the so-called visionaries then they are of Satan and not Our Lady. In which case whatever miracles have happened there were the rewards of the Spirit of God for pure faith and nout else.

[brendan1104]

Our Lord and Our Lady would not have respect for other religions, religions that lead people to lose their souls... this defies the thrice-solemnly defined dogma, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus or Outside the Church there is no salvation. The words mean just what they say.

Quotes from the false Medjugorje apparitions:

[quote] The Madonna always stresses that there is but one God and that people have enforced unnatural separation. One cannot truly believe, be a true Christian, if he does not respect other religions as well. [/quote]
[395- ]"Seer" Ivanka Ivankovic

[quote] The Madonna said that religions are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by her Son. [/quote]
[396] –"Seer" Ivanka Ivankovic

[quote] [b][i][u] Question: "Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?" Answer: "No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son. [/u][/i][/b] [/quote]
[397] – "Seer" Vicka Ivankovic

- this last quote is all that is needed to disprove Medjugorje.

Our Lady rejects dogma and lies about Our Lord? Yeah, ok.... denying the Gospel and Papal dogmatic mandates for salvation really come from God.

Edited February 11, 2006 by brendan1104

[the_rev]

[quote]Jamie, that is not true. The former Bishop of Mostar (??? forgive me, it's been a long time) ruled that the apparitions were not supernatural and I'm quite sure the current (as of a few years ago) bishop concurred.[/quote]

Bishop Ratko also believed that the Church shouldn't had approved Fatima and Lourdes, he claimed that they were too false, that the BVM would not reveal herself to seers, that it was just nonsense.

Living in Čitluk for two years of my life, just a little way from Medjugorje, we visited there often, and where I stayed housed many of the priests who came to visit.

One time when I went with one of the groups that stayed at my house to Fr. Jozo's; a lady who was in a wheel chair, who could not walk, received a blessing from Fr. Jozo, the man whom I was with, said to God if this lady could walk that he would become a priest. Sure enough this lady got up from her wheel chair, and she walked around the perameter of the church. She was healed of her disease, and may I say, that I attended this young man's ordination last year and served for his first mass.

Fr. Jozo was the priest when the apparitons first began. He too didn't believe in them. He wanted it not to be true. He summoned the seers together into a room, they were in front of him and he was behind them. As the group was pryaing the rosary, Fr. Jozo now didn't know whent he apparations occured or what have you, but during the Rosary, his prayers became more respondant at one time, emphasizing everything, finally coming to a hault, and he knelt in awe, for he to for once and only once saw the BVM.

[quote]I am suprised the_rev has not commented yet. Didn't he have a rosary turn gold in connection with Medjugorje?[/quote]

Yes, while I was there the rosary that Bishop Wycislo gave me, (God rest his soul) turned gold. But that is of an extraordinary means and doesn't aid the validity of the apparations.

The point is, is that this is a place of conversion. People who left the faith go there, and come back full of the faith and live the faith. They have a deep love for the BVM, for our Lord in the Eucharist. At. St. James they have eucharistic adoration every night, because it is so important to the faithful. It's leading people to the faith; why should we be discouraging this. We should be glad and rejoice for God is winning this war on faith. He is using many extraordinary means in winning this war on faith, but God is winning. If he is there, they will come.

Yours in Christ,

Eddy Lee

Please email me at avemarisstella@gmail.com if you want to discuss my time living in Herzegovina. I would be happy to share.

[the_rev]

[quote] Question: "Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?" Answer: "No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son.[/quote]

This is not what she said. Our Lady told Vicka, that Jesus and she love all the children, but those who are Catholic are the ones closest to their hearts for they know the truth. We had Vicka over for dinner, I to read that statment, but that is not what was said. Everything you read on the Internet doesn't always implicate the truth.

yours in Christ,

Eddy Lee

[the_rev]

Our lady always emphasizes the teachings of the faith. The rosary, the eucharist, purgatory, etc. All things Catholic are Medjugorje.

[brendan1104]

not the dogma outside the church there is no salvation though...

[Aloysius]

like I said; the only way medjurge is legitimate is if those quotes are not accurate. I've seen nothing except the_rev's personal guarentee that they are innacurate quotes. Therefore, I cannot be sure. All I can say is that if any of that is contained in any of the messages, then they are of satan no matter how much good is being done through them. If those are the true message, then give me a thousand conversion stories and a million miracles from the place and I'll see nothing but "fire called down from heaven" which even the anti-christ can do.

Again, it all rests on whether the message actually says anything along those lines. Is there anywhere we can actually see an authentic version of what the seers are saying?

[dandy777]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread as I was so hurt by some of the posts that I just couldn't go through them.

I have been to Medjugorje and am going again. I'm sorry to say that some of the comments mentioned in here are written by people who haven't been there and it shows.

Medjugorje is a holy place and it draws a lot of people to confession as well. It is not a mass hysteria. I saw many conversions or at least people who repented and cameback to Christ. Even though the apparitions are given a lot of importance, the Blessed Sacrament is always at the centre of all activities.

[Aloysius]

That is and can be all well and good: but when it comes to the question of if the apparitions are real we must look at the content of the messages. IF this is the content of the message, then the content of the message is heresy.

It's not about whether you've gone, or how many people it's helped or hurted or given miracles to or conversions to. It's about whether or not the message is true. Don't let yourself be hurt by such an outlook, it is not a personal attack on any of your experiences with the place. It is an objective observational analysis from the standpoint the Church herself will be examining it. If it turns out that these are real quotes, and that this vision is really proposing that message, then it is not a true vision; but your experiences centered on the Blessed Sacrament and the Rosary will not be any less effifacious-- it's just that you would have to recognize that there was no special supernatural event that took you to that place; or perhaps you can see the irony and laugh at the stupidity of satan who brought you to that place hoping to lead souls into varying degrees of heresy but instead ended up causing your deep interior conversion to an orthodox Catholic God-loving faith that does not expouse the heresies of religious indifferentism he was hoping to fool you with.

Again, if and only if these quotes are an accurate portrayal of the message of medjorge.

[dandy777]

If you want a list of all the messages and reflections of Medugorje, take a look here....

[url="http://www.medjugorje.org/olmpage.htm"]http://www.medjugorje.org/olmpage.htm[/url]

[dandy777]

[quote name='the_rev' date='Feb 11 2006, 02:25 AM']This is not what she said.  Our Lady told Vicka, that Jesus and she love all the children, but those who are Catholic are the ones closest to their hearts for they know the truth.  We had Vicka over for dinner, I to read that statment, but that is not what was said.  Everything you read on the Internet doesn't always implicate the truth.

yours in Christ,

Eddy Lee
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I met Vicka too and those who did will surely know that she is a very devout person filled with the presence of God.

[cmotherofpirl]

Genuine appariations are surrounded by many false claims as to confuse the issue. We will not know until it is over and the church gives a final ruling.
I do know of one I'd consider a miracle: my niece My SIL was told her baby was deformed, missing vital organs, and must be aborted. A sister going to Medjugorje took the sonagram and asked Vicka pray to our Lady asking for a miracle. Joan Vicka was born totally healthy. When she learned to talk she asked about the pretty lady in blue.

My husband attended a Medjugorje conference in Pittsburgh years ago. I didn't know much about it, and wouldn't go. He called me from there and told to to look to the sky. I figured one of the big blimps were going over [ they are stationed 3 miles away]. The SUN was dancing in the sky. I have seen many solar phenomena, but have never seen this before or since.

Our God is a mysterious God.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 11 2006, 11:13 AM'] The SUN was  dancing in the sky. 
[/quote]
Can you give a more detailed description?

[Tink]

[color=#ff0066]I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but here is my view... If this is not from God, it is from His enemy. And if it is from Satan, why in the world would he convert so many from atheism to Catholicism and cause countless people's hearts to be softened and warmed? I have a friend who has been to Medjugorje who was completely skeptical before she arrived. She said that while she and her family were there they kept seeing a light on the top of a hill, and when it finally faded, they went up and saw that it happened to be at the station of the cross where Christ meets His mother, and there was a rose on the top of the hill. My friend is a devout Catholic but believed the apparitions to be a hoax until that event. I know her and trust her with all my heart and I don't think something so obviously beautiful is a work of the devil. [/color]

[Era Might]

[quote]IF this is the content of the message, then the content of the message is heresy.[/quote]

Keep in mind, also, that even a seer of a legitimate apparition can be wrong. This happened, for example, with Melanie of La Salette:

[quote]The Bishop of Grenoble was forced to declare publicly in 1851 that the mission of the shepherd children had ended and that the matter was now in the hands of the Church. He did this to end Melanie's pretensions to further and continuous revelations. The Bishop made it clear that the approval of the Church was only for the original revelation of 1846 and not for any subsequent claims.

After the Council of the Vatican, Melanie publicly contradicted in 1873 its Decree Pastor Aeternus by claiming that Our Lady had confided in her that "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist". Following this, the Church privately warned her and banned this new message, forbidding Catholics from entertaining or discussing it.

In 1878, she published this prohibited new message of 1873 as her original "Secret" of 1846 with the "Imprimatur" of Bishop Zola of Lecce in Italy in a 33 paragraph work published on the 33rd anniversary of the original apparition, on November 15, 1879, under the title, "Apparition of the Blessed Virgin on the Mountain of La Salette". The Vatican promptly put this on the Index of Prohibited Books.

In 1880 the Bishop of Troyes denounced the Lecce-imprimatured book to the Holy Office, and in turn Cardinal Caterini, Secretary of the Congregation of the Holy Office , publicly wrote back to him, the Bishop of Castellammare and the other members of the hierarchy that "The Holy Office is displeased by the publication of this book. Its express will is that every copy which has been put into circulation be withdrawn, as far as is possible, from the hands of the faithful."

In 1901 Abbe Gilbert Combe published his version of Melanie's latter (1873) prohibited "secret" under the title "The Great Coup and Its Probable Dates", which was anti-Bonaparte and pro-Bourbon. It too was promptly put on the Index.

Again in 1906 another of Combe's publication on this 1873 "secret" titled "The Secret of Melanie and the Actual Crisis" was promptly placed on the Index.

These actions of the Church caused a great deal of confusion in Catholic minds, so that [b]it was compelled to clarify that the original message confided to Maximin and Melanie in 1846 remained approved, and it was only the latter messages, and particularly the 1873 message, contradicting Vatican I, saying "Rome will lose the faith, and become the seat of the Antichrist" that was banned. In October 1912, Albert Lepidi, Master of the Sacred Palace in a public statement in reply to a query by Cardinal Lucon affirmed that the original message of 1846 remained approved[/b].

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Salette"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Salette[/url][/quote]

This is why we must not place too much trust in ANYTHING but public, Divine revelation.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Era Might