LIBERTAS (What Pope Leo XIII wrote about Liberals)

[morostheos]

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Feb 21 2006, 10:43 AM']Just the question I needed to further develop that stuff. It's also encouraging to know that someone was actually able to understand what I write because sometimes I'm not even sure I do .

I appeal to Catholic Theology.  God created the world in a very particular  way did He not?  That's what we believe anyway.  So reality itself is unchanging because God constructed it exactly the way he intended to construct it.  And God is unchanging so he won't change his mind about stuff he creates.  Thus, Truth can be known from the created order.  And Truths about the created order are PROPERLY known from the created order.

When you place an idea before reality -- that is, holding it to be an accurately true description of reality -- you are being liberal [i]because[/i] it is [i]possible[/i] that the idea, in some way, conflicts with what is real in the created order.  Thus, it is NECESSARY to BE conservative in regard to  ideas, because not every idea that pops into your head is in harmony with the created order.  And anything that is not in harmony with the created order is an untrue idea.  Thus it can be seen that a liberal attitude toward ideas is potentially not in harmony with the created order, and potentially unfriendly toward Truth.  Hence, [/I]observation of reality[I] in order to TEST an idea's harmoniousness with reality is a conservative action (i.e. placing reality before ideas).  Do you kind of see how this is the case?
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Yes, that makes sense. Here's my question though: are you referring to liberal/conservative in the political sense of the word or in the more general sense?

It seems to me that both liberals and conservatives (politically) have a tendency to place ideas before reality.

[stbernardLT]

I once liberated a hamster from a toilet bowl. : Who ever said you can't be both a liberal and a catholic. In fact me and the ACLU are organizing a "hamster rights" rally. We think it is sad that every hamster is potrayed as someone who eats their young, afterall it is just the males. We will not be at peace until this problem gets resolved.

Just a little sarcasm towards liberals (and hamsters)

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='stbernardLT' date='Feb 24 2006, 01:59 PM']I once liberated a hamster from a toilet bowl.  :  Who ever said you can't be both a liberal and a catholic.  In fact me and the ACLU are organizing a "hamster rights" rally.  We think it is sad that every hamster is potrayed as someone who eats their young, afterall it is just the males.  We will not be at peace until this problem gets resolved.

Just a little sarcasm towards liberals (and hamsters)
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The poor hamster...

[Desert Walker]

[quote name='morostheos' date='Feb 24 2006, 01:50 PM']Yes, that makes sense.  Here's my question though: are you referring to liberal/conservative in the political sense of the word or in the more general sense? 

It seems to me that both liberals and conservatives (politically) have a tendency to place ideas before reality.
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Yes I agree.

I'm referring to liberalism and conservatism, as best I can, in the philosophical sense. I have come to the conclusion that these are two, emerging philosophies that have not yet been defined in a complete way by their adherents. But the definition process is occurring in our time. I am also realizing that the emerging Philosophy of Liberalism is an effective tool in Satan's hands for undermining the effectiveness of a certain set of the moral principles of Catholicism; mainly those regarding sexual pleasure. The American Democratic Party has apparently embraced this philosophy in a large way. The emerging Philosophy of Conservatism is an interesting contrast. It is having difficulty distinguishing itself from the traditional American Republican Party. This is something that it must accomplish because the hardline GOP is still representative of an economic system that has difficulty abiding by Catholic moral principles regarding fairness and justice toward the worker, one of the pillars of effective capitalism. The evils within capitalism are still considered by non-conservatives to be evils that conservatives promote. But the emerging Philosophy of Conservatism bases its vision for society more so on that of Medieval Europe than on the dark state of affairs common to industrial society. I am beginning to see that the Philosophy of Conservatism is, in allying itself with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, fighting against the degeneration of society into the mire of immorality and the injustice that results. It appears to be on the front lines of American society against Lucifer's work in the world. Liberalism seems to be more of a cooperating philosophy (probably unwittingly like a "useful idiot" of communist masterminds). It appears to be cooperating with Evil.

There is SO much more that can be said about this.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "general sense."

Here's my take on the political sense of the words:

Liberalism and conservatism in the political sense is a VERY relative and shifting dynamic. The reason is the concept of "status quo." If the status quo of current politics is that access to an abortion (for example) should be considered a right under civil law then anyone who challenges that status quo could correctly be labeled liberal and anyone defending that status quo could be considered conservative. This understanding of these two opposite adjectives comes from a narrow dictionary definition (the one Snarf provided earlier). You can only see this fact, however, if you drop the notion that these adjectives have anything to do with morality, and that the history of how the current status quo came into being is not considered. For, in the case of abortion, it was a liberal approach to the status quo of abortion's illegality that resulted in the current status quo of abortion's legality (not, of course, in the moral sense of law but in the civil sense of law).