Paphnutius Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 (edited) [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 06:24 PM']the word "Reconciliation" was never used until AFTER Vatican II when it was introduced to make the Sacrament touchy feel-goody. I positively hate the word, and will correct someone when they use it. [right][snapback]885060[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You are right! I abhore the word transutransubstantiation and theoketos because they only appeared after certain councils! Cmon Thomas if we use your line of logic then no council is productive. A schola is Latin for "school." The full phrase is schola cantorum, meaning a school of singers or a choir. Edited February 13, 2006 by Paphnutius
morostheos Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 I'm pretty sure that's the "official" name for the Sacrament, so it's best if we use it.
Resurrexi Posted February 13, 2006 Author Posted February 13, 2006 [quote]You are right! I abhore the word transutransubstantiation and theoketos because they only appeared after certain councils! Cmon Thomas if we use your line of logic then no council is productive. [/quote] WIth "Reconciliation" there were already two much better words: Confession and Penance.
Fidei Defensor Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 You confess your sins, you are reconciled to God and the Church, and you do a penance. I dont see a problem with the usage of the word.
OLAM Dad Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 My dog tags clearly state my religion as Roman Catholic. The U.S. Gubmint couldn't possibly be wrong, could it? fwiw, the Schola is the part of the choir (men only) that sings the propers of the Mass as opposed to the entire choir that sings the ordinary and any hymns.
avemaria40 Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 I don't care, honestly, though I usually call it Confession. I just prefer using Confession, for me it's a matter of personal preference, not whether the name came from Vatican II (a perfectly legitimate and infallible council, by the way)
Fidei Defensor Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Besides, it doesnt really matter what you call it, it will still be the same thing, which is reconciling with God, and with the Church. So, call it whatever, but it will still be the same thing, which would be reconciliation.
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Nope, doesn't bother me. However, I call it Confession. As in I am going to Confession. However, I receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Go figure......
avemaria40 Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 all three of those things (confession, penance, reconciliation) all happen in the Sacrament, so it's not like you're calling it something it's not
Paphnutius Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 07:52 PM']WIth "Reconciliation" there were already two much better words: Confession and Penance. [right][snapback]885194[/snapback][/right] [/quote] At least that is a step away from you stating that you dislike it simply because of it being begun with Vat II (not true really, but that seems to be Era's point here). Well as others have pointed out, Confession and Penance only refer to parts of the Sacrament while Reconciliation refers to the entire act. So there were not really two better words in use for theologians from around the world in conjunction with the pope decided that another word will also be suitable. So it would be helpful if you would offer an argument as to why you think the other word exclude the use of Reconciliation, and do not use Tradition for 1) a council used (remember that the Church speaks with the voice of Christ [Lk 10:16]) 2) it was not started by Vatican II, but is indeed a biblical word.
MilesChristi Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 In various places the Catechism refers to it as the sacrament of reconciliation, the sacrament of confession, and the sacrament of penance. Any of these names are fine.
avemaria40 Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 09:38 PM']not to be rude or anything, but only non-Catholics call Catholics "Roman Catholics." A Roman Catholic is either a Latin Rite Catholic ( and there are many other rites) or a Cathoilc who lives in the City of Rome. Catholics usually refer to themselves as "Catholics". [right][snapback]885177[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I am a Catholic and I do refer to myself as Roman Catholic, and my parish refers to itself as a Roman Catholic Church.
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='avemaria40' date='Feb 12 2006, 09:57 PM']all three of those things (confession, penance, reconciliation) all happen in the Sacrament, so it's not like you're calling it something it's not [right][snapback]885209[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Exactly right.
Resurrexi Posted February 13, 2006 Author Posted February 13, 2006 [quote]In various places the Catechism refers to it as the sacrament of reconciliation, the sacrament of confession, and the sacrament of penance. Any of these names are fine.[/quote] I know that you are refering to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is not the most authoritive catechism. The Catechism of the Council of Trent is much more authoritive, so let's read it instead. [quote]Well as others have pointed out, Confession and Penance only refer to parts of the Sacrament while Reconciliation refers to the entire act. So there were not really two better words in use for theologians from around the world in conjunction with the pope decided that another word will also be suitable. So it would be helpful if you would offer an argument as to why you think the other word exclude the use of Reconciliation, and do not use Tradition for 1) a council used (remember that the Church speaks with the voice of Christ [Lk 10:16]) 2) it was not started by Vatican II, but is indeed a biblical word.[/quote] Confession and Penance are better words. Reconciliation is a touchy feely word, and the Church has never been touchy feely. Confession and Reconciliation both refer to tasks that are often difficult and humiliating, which is good because it makes you sorrier for your sins. And, just so you know, reconciliation dosent describe the whole sacrament either. [quote]all three of those things (confession, penance, reconciliation) all happen in the Sacrament, so it's not like you're calling it something it's not[/quote] Confession and Penance are names that the Sacrament has been called for centures and I see no reason to depart from tradition. [quote]Nope, doesn't bother me. However, I call it Confession. As in I am going to Confession. However, I receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation.[/quote] no, you go to Confession and recieve the Sacrament of Penance (that is what the Catechism of the Council of Trent calls teh Sacrament) [quote]Vatican II (a perfectly legitimate and infallible council, by the way)[/quote] Vatican II, though legitimate, was not infallable. [quote]My dog tags clearly state my religion as Roman Catholic. The U.S. Gubmint couldn't possibly be wrong, could it? [/quote] the US govt. is a bunch of flaming athiestic liberals.
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 10:06 PM']I know that you are refering to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is not the most authoritive catechism. [right][snapback]885224[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Incorrect. Read [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm"]Fidei Depositum[/url]. It is authoritative and it is the most complete Catechism. It is truly universal. Again, how about keeping an open mind and not being so obsintant? You have a lot to learn.
Fidei Defensor Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Well, you know, the Church wasnt always called the Catholic Church.. it was just plain old "Christian Church" but people started calling it Catholic.. Therefore, we are not saying we are "disciples of Christ" but rather, just "universal." So, should be break from calling ourselves the Catholic Church and opt for Christian Church since that is what we were originally called? You are being silly. It is fine to have a preference as to what word you like better, but reconciliation is perfectly acceptable to use, just as much as confession or penance. If you wish to deny that reconciliation is what happens there, then start a new thread about it. But, as long as reconciliation happens in the sacrament, if is fine to call it that.
Era Might Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 [quote]I know that you are refering to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is not the most authoritive catechism. The Catechism of the Council of Trent is much more authoritive, so let's read it instead.[/quote] [quote]Do not allow yourselves to be deceived by the cunning statements of those who persistently claim to wish to be with the Church, to love the Church, to fight so that people do not leave Her. ...But judge them by their works. If they despise the shepherds of the Church and even the Pope, if they attempt all means of evading their authority in order to elude their directives and judgments...then about which Church do these men mean to speak? Certainly not about that established on the foundations of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. --Pope St. Pius X[/quote]
Paphnutius Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 12 2006, 08:06 PM']I know that you are refering to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is not the most authoritive catechism. The Catechism of the Council of Trent is much more authoritive, so let's read it instead. Confession and Penance are names that the Sacrament has been called for centures and I see no reason to depart from tradition.[/quote]Shall we go over the Apostolic Consitution again Thomas? [quote]Confession and Reconciliation both refer to tasks that are often difficult and humiliating, which is good because it makes you sorrier for your sins. And, just so you know, reconciliation dosent describe the whole sacrament either. [/quote]So because they are harsher words they are better? That is hardly a reason. What about the part of the sacrament that encompasses reconciliation? You have left that part out. I would also love you to show me why Reconciliation is not the whole act. Confessing and doing penance are parts of being [i]reconciled [/i]with God. An argument again please? I find it ironic that you appeal to Reconciliation being all emotional, yet you prefer other words because they are harder feeling words.
avemaria40 Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 President Bush is a conservative Christian and there are many good people as well as dishonest people, religious and atheist, liberal and conservative working in our govn't. Btw, what about Rick Santorum, a Catholic senator who works in the US govn't but has the integrity to follow his Catholic Faith on teachings like abortion and gay marriage? Don't diss the govn't, at least our govn't isn't like Saudi Arabia where you can be killed for being a Catholic. At least this country offers us rights and freedoms and we've had more peace and equality in this country than any Divine Right or Communist country can claim. No government is perfect but the US govn't is not just full of atheistic liberals and all the same, the atheistic liberals are also trying to make sure we stay free. Please have some respect.
Sarah_JC Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 If the penance is the sacrament... how come one is absolved before he completes it?
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