Colin and Baptism.

[Colin]

Hi again,
Adam, we agree that the Bible must be read as a whole. That is why its clear teaching on the way of salvation must influence our views on baptism.
When Paphnutius quotes John 3, he neglects to read a few verses down, "for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Just as in John 6:29 Jesus states that the ONE work we must do to please God is to believe on his son. And so another score of verses I have both quoted and not quoted.
Just as Jesus asked the woman who touched him to identify herself, as Paul states that if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths, so baptism is a public declaration of our faith. Jesus said if we were ashamed of him, he would be ashamed of us, and baptism is the normal, proper follow up to salvation. Were a person to die before they could be baptised, God is quite capable of seeing the truth in his heart. If, however, for fear of men or some other reason, a person believed then shrank back, this would be a sin. We follow Jesus command when we are baptised.
I can only state, the clear teaching of Scripture is that we are saved by believing in Jesus, by grace through faith. Nothing more.
Nowhere does the New Testament is baptism of babies either taught or practiced. If you wish to claim it as Biblical, you must be able to do both. Again, Jesus blessed little children, his goodwill towards them is obvious, but his did not baptise them.
To be saved, you only need to believe on Jesus. Then you are born again, filled with his Spirit, given new life. A baby does not repent, does not confess, does not believe, therefore it cannot be baptised.
I fear we are entering into a dialogue of the deaf. Sacrementalism to me seems contrary to the simple, clear message of the Bible. More like majic or superstition - if a baby isnt sprinkled with water God sends it to hell??? What sort of a God would beaver dam a baby for the lack of something it had absolutely no control over?
Take care, Colin
PS, Paphnutius stated I was guilty of eisigesis because the Scripture did not say "all who believed in his household were baptised." It did however state that all in his household believed, and that all his household were baptised. I cant see the eisigesis.

[thessalonian]

Colin,

So then are there two means of salvation, one for babies and one for adults? Or do babies go to h-e-double tooth picks? I do in fact know Protestants who believe that babies go to hell.

[ironmonk]

[quote]To be saved, you only need to believe on Jesus. Then you are born again, filled with his Spirit, given new life.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but you have been told wrong because the above quote contradicts scripture.

[b]St. Matt. 7:21 [/b]
"[color=red]Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. [/color]

[b]Unless[/b] you do the will of the Father you will [b]not [/b]enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Other verses which show that we need to do more than believe....

[b]James 2:20 [/b]
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that [u][b]faith without works is useless[/b][/u]?

[b]Mark 16:16[/b] [color=red]Whoever believes [u][b]and [/b][/u][b]is baptized [/b]will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned[/color].

[b]John 3:19 [/b]
[color=red]And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. [/color]
[b]21 [/b][color=red]But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, [b]so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.[/b] [/color]

[b]2 Corin. 11:15 [/b]
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. [u][b]Their end will correspond to their deeds. [/b][/u]


[b]Titus 3:8 [/b]This saying is trustworthy. 3 I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others.
...
[b]14 [/b]But let our people, too, learn to devote themselves to good works to supply urgent needs, so that they may not be unproductive.

[b]Rev. 22:12 [/b]"[color=red]Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense [u][b]I will give to each according to his deeds.[/b][/u] [/color]


[b]St. Matt 10:22[/b]
[color=red]You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.[/color]

[b]St. Matt 24:13[/b]
[color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.[/color]

We are not saved until the end.

[b]Hermas[/b]
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [[b]A.D. 80[/b]]).


[b]Justin Martyr[/b]
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [[b]A.D. 151[/b]]).


[b]Tertullian[/b]
"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [[b]A.D. 203[/b]]).

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).

[b]Hippolytus[/b]
"[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation" (Homilies 11:26 [[b]A.D. 217[/b]]).


[b]Origen[/b]
"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [[b]A.D. 235[/b]]).



In regards to rule of faith, please look up and meditate on...
1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Tim. 3:15, 2 Tim. 2:2, 2 Peter 1:20, 3:15-16



Your servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Colin' date='Feb 17 2006, 04:45 AM'] More like majic or superstition - if a baby isnt sprinkled with water God sends it to hell??? What sort of a God would beaver dam a baby for the lack of something it had absolutely no control over?
[/quote]That is our point, but you are not answering the question about what happens to them. Do you believe that they have the stain of Original Sin as I have shown? Let us start there with one point then progress to others.

Do babies have the stain of Original Sin from their birth?

[quote]Paphnutius stated I was guilty of eisigesis because the Scripture did not say "all who believed in his household were baptised." It did however state that all in his household believed, and that all his household were baptised. I cant see the eisigesis.
[/quote]You if we are reading the same Acts 16:[quote]16:25. And at midnight, Paul and Silas, praying, praised God. And they that were in prison heard them. 16:26. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened and the bands of all were loosed. 16:27. And the keeper of the prison, awakening out of his sleep and seeing the doors of the prison open, drawing his sword, would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.16:28. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here. 16:29. Then calling for a light, he went in: and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas. 16:30. And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved? 16:31. But they said: [b]believe in the Lord Jesus: and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 16:32. And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. 16:33. And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes: and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately.[/b] 16:34. And when he had brought them into his own house, he laid the table for them: and rejoiced with all his house, believing God. [/quote]Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not see a "and they all believed so they were Baptized." It said that Paul preached to them then washed their wounds (Baptism).

[[quote]so baptism is a public declaration of our faith [/quote]And it cleanses us from our sins by grace...would you please respond to some of my statements at least rather than just ignoring them? I have quoted the necessity of Baptism from Christ, Paul, and Peter...silence. I have shown how it does remove our sins by the grace of God....silence. I have shown how in other places Christ healed someone for another's faith....silence from you. I have shown how we are born with Original Sin (being condemend because of Adam)....silence. You are correct, we are entering into a conversation of the deaf. Please, engage me at least on Original Sin so that we might make some headway.

Thank you Ironmonk on the posting on solda fide.

Edited February 17, 2006 by Paphnutius

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 16 2006, 08:04 PM']Blast..! That will make it hard to read.....my apologies guys.
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[/quote]
if you have more than the alotted number of quote boxes, then they don't work. so, i indented your passages from scripture, instead of making them quotes, and that fixed everything

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Feb 17 2006, 10:14 AM']if you have more than the alotted number of quote boxes, then they don't work. so, i indented your passages from scripture, instead of making them quotes, and that fixed everything
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[/quote]
That is handy to know.

Thank you for fixing them!

[Colin]

Hi there,
thanks to Ironmonk for his post re salvation by faith and /or works.
I think we often get messed up by the Protestant emphasis on salvation as the initial being born again, and then sanctification as the ongoing progress of the Christian walk. Clearly, the Bible speaks of salvation as a past event, you were saved, as a present event, you are being saved, and as a future event, you will be saved.
If we use salvation most often for the first stage, would you use conversion for it?
Beyond that, there is the real issue of how, on what basis, we are made right with God. As we agree, salvation is a love relationship with God (wow!). It is something I could never earn - "If I stop swearing, will you send your Son to die for me?" just doesnt make sence. I could never earn that Jesus should give his life for mine - I could never be worthy or deserving of that! I can simply thank Jesus with my whole heart and accept his unmerited love for me. I am saved by grace, and live by grace. What does this mean? It means when I told God I was not worthy to be called his son, he rushed out, huged me, and prepared a feast for me.
What place then for works?
Well, as a child of my Father, I desire to please him, to live according to my new nature. So yes, there are works for me to do. But these have no bearing on my salvation except as outward expressions of its reality.
I try to follow God each day, not because Im afraid of going to hell if I dont - perfect love casts out fear, I do it simply because I love Him, and know how endless is his love for me. I do it as an act of love, simply to please him - not because I am worried about my salvation. Yes, works are important, but not for that reason.
Sometimes I get my wife flowers, not because she will divorce me if I dont, not with any alterior motive, but just because I love her. The same with my God. Am I afraid of hell, desperately trying to earn my salvation each day? No!
I have never been to mass, confessed to a priest, prayed to a saint, yet God has given me his Holy Spirit, enlightened His word, I worship him in spirit and in truth, I know utterly he loves me.
Its not a question of a hierachy, a beauracracy, of a patent or a copy right - its not a matter of having all the correct forms filled out. Its a matter of knowing whom I have believed in. Its a matter of a living love relationship with him each day.
Hope this helps explain where I am coming from, Colin

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Colin' date='Feb 19 2006, 10:13 PM'] But these have no bearing on my salvation except as outward expressions of its reality.[/quote]
Romans 2:4-8. We are judged according to our works.

Also: I am willing to give you as much time as you need, but I am curious if you are going to respond to my statements about Original Sin.

Edited February 20, 2006 by Paphnutius

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Colin' date='Feb 20 2006, 12:13 AM']Clearly, the Bible speaks of salvation as a past event, you were saved, as a present event, you are being saved, and as a future event, you will be saved.

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[/quote]

Colin,

Thank you for your reply. I'm glad that we totally agree on this point.


[quote]If we use salvation most often for the first stage, would you use conversion for it?[/quote]

Yes, I think you could say that. We see conversion as an ongoing event. We can always come closer to Christ.

[quote]It is something I could never earn[/quote]

We agree here too. The Catholic Church teaches that the only reason why we are saved is because Jesus Christ died for us.

[quote]Well, as a child of my Father, I desire to please him, to live according to my new nature. So yes, there are works for me to do. But these have no bearing on my salvation except as outward expressions of its reality.[/quote]

Our works do have a bearing on our salvation. If we do not do the will of the father, we will not see Heaven. No where in history before 1500 AD is that interpretation of salvation. If you were correct we would easily be able to find quotes from the first Christians about that. What you write here contradicts the first 1500 years of Christian teachings. Since Christ built One Faith, if a teachings contradicts something that was from the beginning of Christianity, it cannot be true.

[b]St. Matt. 7:21[/b]
"[color=red]Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but [b]only the one who [u]does [/u]the will of my Father [/b]in heaven[/color].

Our deeds (works) will justify our reward...

[b]Rev. 20:12 [/b]
I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. [u][b]The dead were judged according to their deeds,[/b][/u] by what was written in the scrolls.


[b]St. Luke 12:47 [/b]
[color=red]That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; [/color]
[b]48 [/b][color=red]and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more. [/color]

[b]2 Corin 11:15 [/b]
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. [b]Their end will correspond to their deeds[/b].



A few quotes from the first Christians...

[b]The Didache[/b]

"Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).

[b]Hermas[/b]

"And as many of them . . . as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower [i.e., the Church]. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish. . . . But if any one relapse into strife, he will be cast out of the tower, and will lose his life. Life is the possession of all who keep the commandments of the Lord" (The Shepherd 3:8:7 [A.D. 80]).

[b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b]

"And pray without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God?" (Letter to the Ephesians 10 [A.D. 110]).

"Be pleasing to him whose soldiers you are, and whose pay you receive. May none of you be found to be a deserter. Let your baptism be your armament, your faith your helmet, your love your spear, your endurance your full suit of armor. Let your works be as your deposited withholdings, so that you may receive the back-pay which has accrued to you" (Letter to Polycarp 6:2 [A.D. 110]).

[b]Justin Martyr[/b]
"We have learned from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man’s actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed" (First Apology 43 [A.D. 151]).

"[E]ternal fire was prepared for him who voluntarily departed from God and for all who, without repentance, persevere in apostasy" (fragment in Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:26 [A.D. 156]).

[b]Irenaeus[/b]

"[T]o Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ [Phil. 2:10–11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . [T]he ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"[Paul], an able wrestler, urges us on in the struggle for immortality, so that we may receive a crown and so that we may regard as a precious crown that which we acquire by our own struggle and which does not grow upon us spontaneously. . . . Those things which come to us spontaneously are not loved as much as those which are obtained by anxious care" (Against Heresies 4:37:7 [A.D. 189]).


[quote]I try to follow God each day, not because Im afraid of going to hell if I dont - perfect love casts out fear, I do it simply because I love Him, and know how endless is his love for me. [/quote]

That is great that you too have a profound love for God. Although, it is important that you do fear going to hell, because there is a hell. We must run the race to win. St. Paul who walked with Christ says to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. There is a chance we could fall, and we must always be on our gaurd not to. If we fall and fail to repent before we die, we could go to hell.

[b]Phil. 2:12 [/b]
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.


[b]St. Luke 8:13 [/b]
[color=red]Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they [u][b]believe only for a time and fall away [/b][/u]in time of trial. [/color]

Rom. 11:22 See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, [b][u]provided you continue [/u]in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off[/b]"



[quote]Am I afraid of hell, desperately trying to earn my salvation each day? No! [/quote]

St. Paul was afraid of hell and told others to be. We do not earn our salvation, but if we want salvation we must work for it.

[quote]God has given me his Holy Spirit, enlightened His word, I worship him in spirit and in truth, I know utterly he loves me.[/quote]

How do you know that God has given you His Spirit? Everyone in the New Testament had to have hands laid on them before they received the Spirit. The hands that were laid on them had to be able to be traced to the Apostles. God does love you, as He loves all men... but some men will go to Hell because they reject God's love by not doing His will or rejecting the ones He sent.

[b]Luke 10:16[/b] "[color=red]He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me[/color]"

Christ told the first bishops (Apostles) that the Spirit of Truth will guide them always, until the end of age.

[b]St. John 14:16 [/b]
[color=red]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, [/color]
[b]17 [/b][color=red]the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. [/color]
[b]18 [/b][color=red]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.[/color]
...
[b]26 [/b][color=red]The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. [/color]

If you where worshiping God in Spirit and Truth, then you would not contradict what has been taught since 33 AD.

The teaching authority is the Church, which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth because Jesus guides it, as He promised in St. John 14.


[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the [b]church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth[/b].


[quote]Its not a question of a hierachy, a beauracracy, of a patent or a copy right - its not a matter of having all the correct forms filled out. Its a matter of knowing whom I have believed in. Its a matter of a living love relationship with him each day.  [/quote]

It is a matter of authority.

[b]St Matt 18:17 [/b] (Jesus said) [color=red]If he refuses to listen to them, [u][b]tell the church[/b][/u]. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. [/color]

[b]St. Matt 28:18[/b] Then Jesus approached and said to them, "[color=red]All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.[/color]
[b]19 [/b][color=red]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age[/color]."


We should remain faithful because from whom we learn it. Unless we learn the faith from the people that can be directly traced to the Apostles which then is to Christ, we will be lead astray by the very groups that the Scriptures warn us of.

[b]2 Timothy 3:14 [/b]
But you, [b][u]remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it[/u][/b],

[b]2 Tim 2:2 [/b]
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.


[b]2 Thess 2:15 [/b]
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

[b]Acts 20:29 [/b]
I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.
[b]30 [/b]And from your own group, [b]men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them[/b].

[b]2 Peter 1:20 [/b] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

[b]2 Peter 3:15[/b]
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
[b]16 [/b]speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that [u][b]the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures[/b][/u].



If you would like to get the first Christian writings, you can buy them here:
[url="http://www.logos.com/products/details/518"]http://www.logos.com/products/details/518[/url] for $250

Or read them for free here:
[url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url]

Please note what Logos writes...
[quote]The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text.[/quote]

Why would the Protestant edition have to contain "additional front matter written at a later date"?

You can see quotes where all the distinctly Catholic teachings are from here: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library.asp[/url]
(use the Library box links to the left to navigate).

[quote]I have never been to mass, confessed to a priest, prayed to a saint, yet [/quote]

No one is perfect and we are all trying to be closer to Christ. I am greatful that you are taking the time to dialog with me.

Again, thank you and God Bless.

A couple other resources to better understand Catholicism...

[url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url] <- Where are Catholic teachings in Scripture? This is a great resource.

[url="http://www.Catholic-Pages.com"]http://www.Catholic-Pages.com[/url] <- Lots of stuff.

Your servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote]God has given me his Holy Spirit,[/quote]

I want to elaborate a little more on this statement...

Many people in the world believe that God has given them His Holy Spirit... yet, there are thousands of contradictions in what each of them believe to be the 100% truth, as promised in St. John 14.

How can we know that we have the Spirit of God when so many people think that they do, and if they did, they would not contradict each other?

How can we know that we have the Spirit of God unless we do a litmus test of what the first Christians taught about the Scriptures before 500 AD?

Please think about it.

Your servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[Paphnutius]

Wonderful posts Ironmonk! I find it hard for some people to continue to state that the Catholic Church is unbiblical with so much evidence right there.

[Colin]

Dear Ironmonk,
Thank you for your irenic reply!
How do I know I am filled with God's Holy Spirit? Firstly because he promised to do so for all who believed (John 14: 12-21 "Truly, truly, I say to you, [b]He who believes on Me[/b], the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.
And whatever you may ask in My name, that I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
If you love Me, keep My commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,"
Jesus here clearly stipulates to whom the Holy Spirit will be given - "he who believes on me"

Secondly, I know that I love Jesus with all my heart, that he has given me a love for his word, that he convicts and guides and comforts me. I know my shepherd's voice. Equally, to quote Philippians 3:12, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect, but I am pressing on, if I may lay hold of that for which I also was taken hold of by Christ Jesus."

Concerning your quotes on the place of works, I would say our deeds reveal the truth of our call. I would see your Revelation verse as more the judgment of non-believers, ours being described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-16. Here our salvation is not the issue (1 Corinthians 3:15), but certainly it is a serious and awesome event. I try to die daily to self, and am painfully aware of my shortcomings!!

Regarding the matter of authority, we have a genuine difference of opinion. I would see the authority as being in the Bible, God’s authoritative self-revelation, and the teaching of the Apostles therein, and would view that authority as always resting in the Scriptures themselves. As long as anyone, early church leader or new convert in China, continues in those teachings, he is authorized by God himself. I do think you overplay the authority as sacred lineage idea. Paul was not appointed apostle by Peter or any other of the originals, yet he rebuked Peter to his face when he went against the gospel. Peter did not reply, "who made you an apostle, I’m the head of the church, you are out of line", rather he recognized Paul's rebuke as just (the wisdom from above being open to reason), and backed down. Who appointed Jeremiah or Amos "I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet", what hierarchy authorized Mary? By her time, an authorized hierarchy, temple, priests etc, had been functioning for over a thousand years. Do not discount God's ability to sovereignly choose, appoint, and call. Clearly such a system can be called into question/abused (as can yours), but equally clearly God is alive and active, and through his word, his Spirit and the council of believers, the wisdom from above remains open to reason, and we still know each other by our fruits.

Concerning the early church fathers, I have no idea what later writing Logos has added to the Prod version, or why. I have read some of them (several years ago now), and would remark on how differently they treat the Scriptures to their own words. They may disagree or discuss an issue, yet always the words of the Bible, Old and New Testament, are utterly beyond dispute, accepted as totally authoritative. They give them a reverence they do not give either themselves or each other. I am more familiar with the Talmud, and this is also certainly the case there re the Old Testament. A recognition that their words are fallible, but that this word is not. That it is of a different species entirely. We would not agree with Origen's (from memory - or was it Justin Martyr's?) view of the Holy Spirit, for example, as being less than the Father or Son. Yet of no verse of Scripture would you say, "this is wrong". You recognize that not everything in every church father is correct, something quite unlike your approach to Scripture.

Thanks again for discussing these things with me, I do appreciate your kindness,
God bless, Colin

[ironmonk]

Colin,

I'm sorry that this is so long but you bring up quite a few good points and sometimes it is hard to convey everything on a forum.

[quote][color=blue]Dear Ironmonk,
Thank you for your irenic reply! [/color][/quote]

And thank you for yours. It is great to dialog with non-Catholics who do not use Jack Chick tracts for their Catholic Church info.

[quote][color=blue]How do I know I am filled with God's Holy Spirit? Firstly because he promised to do so for all who believed (John 14: 12-21 "Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.
And whatever you may ask in My name, that I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. [/color][/quote]
There are others who believe the same thing yet contradict what you believe. I do not understand how it can be the one faith (Eph. 4:5) if there are contradictions because truth cannot contradict truth.

I ask a favor... please say this prayer daily for at least week... please meditate on it and be led by the spirit...
"O God, I humbly beseech thee to teach me thy true religion,
that leads to everlasting happiness,
through Jesus Christ thy Son, our Lord. Amen."

[quote][color=blue]If you love Me, keep My commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,"
Jesus here clearly stipulates to whom the Holy Spirit will be given - "he who believes on me"[/color] [/quote]

Christ tells us that some believe for a time and fall away. So we must always be on our gaurd. If some fall away and they thought they had the Spirit, although they didn't, how can you be certain?

[quote][color=blue]Secondly, I know that I love Jesus with all my heart, that he has given me a love for his word, that he convicts and guides and comforts me. I know my shepherd's voice. Equally, to quote Philippians 3:12, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect, but I am pressing on, if I may lay hold of that for which I also was taken hold of by Christ Jesus."[/color] [/quote]

I too have a love for Christ and God's word. I'm glad we can share this common ground. It will help us both come closer to Christ.


[quote][color=blue]Concerning your quotes on the place of works, I would say our deeds reveal the truth of our call. I would see your Revelation verse as more the judgment of non-believers, ours being described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-16. Here our salvation is not the issue (1 Corinthians 3:15), but certainly it is a serious and awesome event. I try to die daily to self, and am painfully aware of my shortcomings!![/color] [/quote]

I understand your point, but that is not the context of what the verses say. If we look at what the first Christians wrote about them, it is not what they taught either. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith are dead (James 2:14-26). Faith and works are of equal need. Saying that works are a product of faith is the same thing as saying that works are needed. Someone could have faith and not works - others might say that he had no faith; but there is nothing in the bible that tells us that is a proper test. Who are we to judge that man's heart? If good works where the product of faith then we couldn't have good works without faith. We can have good works without faith, and we can have faith without good works. For many will cry "Lord, Lord" and Christ will not allow them into Heaven because they did not have good works (St. Matt. 25:11-46).


[b]James 2:22 [/b]
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

When something is "active with" that means that they are carrying an equal burden. Faith was incomplete without works. In this same chapter we see that works are useless without faith.


[quote][color=blue]Regarding the matter of authority, we have a genuine difference of opinion. I would see the authority as being in the Bible, God’s authoritative self-revelation, and the teaching of the Apostles therein, and would view that authority as always resting in the Scriptures themselves.[/color] [/quote]

I understand where you are coming from. But did you know that anytime you see the word "Scripture" in the bible it is talking about the Septuagint? The Septuagint was the only collection of books that were considered Scripture by Jew and Christian alike until 90 AD when the Jews took books out and created the Messorah.

All of the books and letters in the New Testament where written in the first century, but it wasn't until 400 AD when all Christians accepted the 27 books of the New Testament as Scripture. The canonization process took many years. St. Augustine was one of the Bishops involved.

Council of the African Church held at Hippo (393 AD) (Where St. Augustine was bishop)
Council of Carthage (397 AD)
Pope Innocent I was the pope that sent out the list of books in the New Testament to all of the Churches. I think in 405 AD.

There were over 200 books considered to be included in the New Testament Scripture, but the councils which were guided by the Holy Spirit as promised in St. John 14, where all Catholic Bishops. If the Catholic Church is not the Church established by God, then by what authority did they have to choose the books when we all say are the Word of God?

Here is a thread I had with a guy that went by Circle Master... he loves to use circular arguments hence patience being an issue with him, but you might find it interesting...
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=5722"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=5722[/url]

The bible is only the written Word of God... there is also sacred traditions as spoken of in the NT, and by the Early Church Fathers.

[quote] [color=blue]As long as anyone, early church leader or new convert in China, continues in those teachings, he is authorized by God himself. [/color]
[/quote]

Where is that in the bible? If he was authorized by God himself, then why do we all disagree on the meanings of the scriptures. We see in the Scriptures that private revelation can misguide us.

[b]2 Peter 1:20 [/b]- Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

[b]2 Peter 3:16 [/b]- As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

[b]Acts 8:30-35[/b] - And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? [b]31 [/b]Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. [b]32 [/b]And the place of the scripture which he was reading was this: He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb without voice before his shearer, so openeth he not his mouth. [b]33 [/b]In humility his judgment was taken away. His generation who shall declare, for his life shall be taken from the earth? [b]34 [/b]And the eunuch answering Philip, said: I beseech thee, of whom doth the prophet speak this? of himself, or of some other man? [b]35 [/b]Then Philip, opening his mouth, and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.


We must be careful of being misguided when we read the Scriptures. Just as the Apostles warned. To know the meaning of Scriptures we must look at them as a whole and study what the first Christian taught. Since Christ said the Church would never be overcome, and there is to be only One Faith... then we must find the faith that has been taught for almost 2000 years. I love Christ, God is my first priority. I love Him, so I want to know everything I can about Him. So I started in 33 AD... and the first 400 years of Christianity are deeper than you can imagine... and that was before the New Testament.


[quote][color=blue]I do think you overplay the authority as sacred lineage idea. [/color][/quote]


I understand why you would. We see lineage first in Acts when they replaced Judas (Acts 1:20). We see that the Apostles held a place of office. The office does not die with a Bishop, a new Bishop replaces the one that left.

[b]Acts 1:20 [/b]
For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.'
[b]21 [/b]Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us,
[b]22 [/b]beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection."
[b]23 [/b]So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias.
[b]24 [/b]Then they prayed, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
[b]25 [/b]to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place."
[b]26 [/b]Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

We see that the teaching authority is passed on by ordination...

[b]Acts 6:6 [/b]
They presented these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them.

[quote][color=blue]Paul was not appointed apostle by Peter or any other of the originals, yet he rebuked Peter to his face when he went against the gospel. [/color] [/quote]

Paul was appointed by Christ. Why do you think it was so significant for the authors of the Gospel to include a rebuke by Paul? Because it was a big thing to rebuke him, because Peter was the leader. We see Jesus only prayed for Peters faith and we see that Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep and verified that Peter loved Him 3 times... this was because Peter was going to deny him three times.

[b]John 21:15 [/b]
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "[color=red]Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" [/color]He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "[color=red]Feed my lambs[/color]."
[b]16 [/b]He then said to him a second time, "[color=red]Simon, son of John, do you love me?" [/color]He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "[color=red]Tend my sheep[/color]."
[b]17 [/b]He said to him the third time, "[color=red]Simon, son of John, do you love me?" [/color]Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "[color=red]Feed my sheep[/color]."

[ironmonk]

[quote][color=blue]Concerning the early church fathers, I have no idea what later writing Logos has added to the Prod version, or why. I have read some of them (several years ago now), and would remark on how differently they treat the Scriptures to their own words. They may disagree or discuss an issue, yet always the words of the Bible, Old and New Testament, are utterly beyond dispute, accepted as totally authoritative. They give them a reverence they do not give either themselves or each other. [/color][/quote]


The Early Church Fathers did not refer to the New Testament, they refered to their teachings of the Gospels. There were readings of the New Testament books during Masses, but they were not considered Scripture until 400 AD. There were disagreements and disputes, just as in Acts, when all the fathers came together to discuss the faith and settle it. At this time when all the leaders of the Church are together is when God guides the Church in all truth (St. John 14) and the Church cannot be wrong on matters of faith and morals. The Church will never be overcome and it will be one faith. None of the Early Church Fathers accepted the bible as the authority. The bible is the inspired writings of the Holy Spirit. The bible cannot settle a dispute, the Church settles disputes.

[b]St. Matt 18:17 [/b]
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.


[quote][color=blue]I am more familiar with the Talmud, and this is also certainly the case there re the Old Testament. A recognition that their words are fallible, but that this word is not. [/color][/quote]

The high priest of the Jews before Christ was infallible. As we see in the Gospels it points out that the High Priest is guided by the Holy Spirit and other places shows that the High Priest teaches from the Chair of Moses.

Also, there are many non-Catholics and even some Catholics who misunderstand what infallible means. Infallible means that the teachings of the faith or morals cannot be wrong. Interpretation of Scripture falls into infallible for the Magisterium of the Church. We believe this because Jesus told the Church in St. John that they would be guided in all truth, and in St. Luke Christ tells them "He who hears you, hears me.".

Something to consider, if you think that everyone is guided by the Holy Spirit when they read the bible, then that would mean that they were infallible... because if the Holy Spirit guided them, they would all be right and agree.

[quote] [color=blue]That it is of a different species entirely. We would not agree with Origen's (from memory - or was it Justin Martyr's?) view of the Holy Spirit, for example, as being less than the Father or Son. Yet of no verse of Scripture would you say, "this is wrong". You recognize that not everything in every church father is correct, something quite unlike your approach to Scripture. [/color][/quote]


I agree that not everything the Early Church Fathers wrote is correct, but there is a common thread to all of them. They all agreed that the Pope was the successor of Peter, they believed in all the Sacraments, their beliefs were all Catholic. Some did schism, but their schisms did not last.

Here are some quotes from the two Catholics that you mention... they write of forgiveness of sins by a priest, the Eucharist Real Pressence, Mary Ever Virgin, the need of Baptism, etc...

[b]Justin Martyr[/b]

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.(First Apology 65 [A.D. 151]).

"Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: ‘In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit,’ they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven’" (First Apology 61:14–17 [A.D. 151]).

"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).

"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).


[b]Origen[/b]
"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

"[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, "To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity"’" (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

"Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).

"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

"Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]" (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).

"[I]f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens" (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).

"The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity" (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).


[quote][color=blue]Thanks again for discussing these things with me, I do appreciate your kindness,
God bless, Colin[/color][/quote]

Thank you. Again I ask this favor as a reminder... please say this prayer daily for at least week... please meditate on it and be led by the spirit...
"O God, I humbly beseech thee to teach me thy true religion,
that leads to everlasting happiness,
through Jesus Christ thy Son, our Lord. Amen."


Your servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[Aloysius]

[quote]any ideas why quote will not work above?[/quote]

it appears there is a limit of quote tags you can use in one post. hope you don't mind my tweaking to figure out the mystery and fix it for you.

-Aloysius

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 23 2006, 05:10 AM']it appears there is a limit of quote tags you can use in one post.  hope you don't mind my tweaking to figure out the mystery and fix it for you.

-Aloysius
[right][snapback]895450[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

cool... thanks

I spent almost two hours last night writing that then another 30 minutes going over it looking for what was wrong. Hence why I need the large carmel iced coffee from Dunkin' Donuts this morning.

God Bless!
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

Colin,
I hope you haven't forgot about us. We're praying for you.

God Bless,
ironmonk