Which Mass do you hear?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 14 2006, 03:08 AM']The Tridentine Mass is superior in the sense that it is a clearer presentation of Catholic dogma and is aesthetically more pleasing.
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That's only your opinion

A novus ordo when done wrong is awful, and it shouldn't happen, a novus ordo when done right is just as beautiful.

[Era Might]

[quote] Lastly, in faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that [b]holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity[/b]; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way. The Council also desires that, where necessary, the rites be revised carefully in the light of sound tradition, and that they be given new vigor to meet the circumstances and needs of modern times.

--Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, "Sacrosanctum Concilium" #4[/quote]

The ordo of Paul VI is a "lawfully acknowledged" rite of the Catholic Church, and hence is of "equal right and dignity" with all other Catholic ordos and rites, including the Tridentine ordo. One Catholic rite cannot be "superior" or "inferior" to another. They are all equally fitting to Holy Mother Church.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
2/14 - Sts. Cyril and Methodius

I don't hear Mass, I pray it. It's not felicitous to use language like this, since it makes the faithful look like passive observers when they are supposed to be participating in an active way in prayer.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Feb 14 2006, 08:08 AM']JMJ
2/14 - Sts. Cyril and Methodius

I don't hear Mass, I pray it.  It's not felicitous to use language like this, since it makes the faithful look like passive observers when they are supposed to be participating in an active way in prayer.
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yar I agree wit ye. I believe it was Pope St. Pius X who said, "Do not pray at the Mass, but [i]pray [/i]the Mass."

I just go to Mass.

If they try to say "Bread of Life" for the Agnus I just shout "Lamb of God" and that's as "schismatic" as I get.

[Cam42]

Honestly, little Tommy doesn't understand what he is talking about. He is only 12 years old. Someone is feeding him this and I would assume that it is the group over at fisheaters. If it isn't that group then it is someone else.

What I would suggest and I will take it to heart from here (right you two...) is to simply dismiss him as a 12 year old and to remember that he can't possibly know what he is talking about. He doesn't have a working understanding of anything. He doesn't have a legitimate argument on any topic that he has posted.

Most of the "objections" that he raises are canned anyways. They are not even original.

If he is lying about being 12 so be it, but until he is honest about that, I think that we can simply rustle his hair, pinch his cheeks and tell him to go sit in the breakfast nook with all the other kids until he is confirmed.

At this point, I am so sick of arguing with this child about things that he doesn't understand, I can hardly stand it.

So little Tommy, when you grow up, come back and discuss this stuff with us. Until then, respect your elders, respect the Roman Catholic Church as it is. And if you don't, I would suggest that you find the nearest priest and go to Confession. You need to learn what spiritual direction is. And you need to start. That one can never do too early.

Perhaps when you are 18 or 19 you'll be mature enough to discuss this stuff rationally. Until you stop acting like a 12 year old and start acting like an adult, I will simply dismiss you as being a child.

So, run along and play little fella, run along.....and stay out of the adults hair. Otherwise I will make hot stuff take your gameboy away again. He's the big meanie around here anyway. That much is perfectly clear.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 13 2006, 10:00 PM']Are you a troll?

No, I'm being serious, are you?

I know SSPX'ers and though you are trying to act like one, I wonder if you aren't seriously here just to be a pain in the @$$.  But its cool either way. Hopefully you will find the fulness of the faith and be drawn closer to the heart of Christ through the good people here at phatmass.
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I don't think he is a troll. He is provocative and argumentative but isn't that OK at the debate table?

From time to time StThomasMore lets his coagulated milk slide off his cracker. I think he is really, really trying hard to secure the 'I do not rep the church' banner. Some days he just tries too hard.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 2nd EP not allowed on Sundays?

Edited February 14, 2006 by OLAM Dad

[avemaria40]

I have not yet been to a Tridentine Mass or an Eastern Divine Liturgy but I can say that, yes, a Novus Ordo Mass is just as beautiful when done correctly, whether it is in Latin or in the vernacular. Our 11:00 Mass on Sundays is absolutely gorgeous and it is Novus Ordo said in English, though we have some Masses where I wish it was either contemplative or enthusiastic, rather than somewhere stuck in the middle

I have no idea about the types of Novus Ordo Masses or Tridentine Masses, all I know is that Tridentine is Indult and Novus Ordo is the norm

I don't mind what kind of Mass I go to as long as I don't miss it. It's an hour out of your week you can give to God and spend time with His Son, Jesus Christ, as well as receiving His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity

Edited February 14, 2006 by avemaria40

[qfnol31]

[quote]Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 2nd EP not allowed on Sundays?[/quote]

It shouldn't be. It's more appropriate to use the others, but it is still allowed.

Regardless of Tyler's age, no one should talk down to him, that's just rude. Especially since this used to be a younger person's phorum, it's probably good to remember that. I've had more problems with how people treat him than with any of his posts. He's probably ignorant, which is much more excusable than what people have been saying to him. He has every right to be here, as of right now. Please act like it.

[Donna]

Cam, sarcasm doesn't become you.

I don't care WHAT Thomasmore or anyone else says. And frankly, it reminds me of Christopher Ferrara (yes, I am comparing you to one of the suspected - not to irk you nor for any other purpose but that I've had the exact reaction to his sarcastic writing as I've had to yours) .

Chris' writing could make points from logic, but cannot with me, because I will not read him anymore.

Because he doesn't act like a gentleman.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 13 2006, 08:51 PM']I sometimes go a novus ordo with all the 'smells and bells', and sometimes I go to a mass where they even raise their hands at the Great Amen. Yep, they're charasmatics. I've gotta much quieter spirituality myself. I've also attended Eastern rite liturgies.

And the Tridentine is not superior to the Novus Ordo.
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neither is the novus ordo superior to the tridentine..they are both valid masses.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 14 2006, 05:12 AM']That's only your opinion

A novus ordo when done wrong is awful, and it shouldn't happen, a novus ordo when done right is just as beautiful.
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thats true..

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Akalyte' date='Feb 14 2006, 03:33 PM']neither is the novus ordo superior to the tridentine..they are both valid masses.
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Agreed. The N.O. is the current mass that the Magisterium has us celebrate today. Which is why Tridentine masses are indult and N.O. is the norm.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Brother Adam

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 14 2006, 02:35 PM']Agreed. The N.O. is the current mass that the Magisterium has us celebrate today. Which is why Tridentine masses are indult and N.O. is the norm.
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This is why I don't argue with him...he's too smart for me to compete with.......

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 14 2006, 11:05 AM']It shouldn't be.  It's more appropriate to use the others, but it is still allowed.

Regardless of Tyler's age, no one should talk down to him, that's just rude.  Especially since this used to be a younger person's phorum, it's probably good to remember that.  I've had more problems with how people treat him than with any of his posts.  He's probably ignorant, which is much more excusable than what people have been saying to him.  He has every right to be here, as of right now.  Please act like it.
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Absolutely correct. Zeal needs directed, not insulted.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Anyone know of a website with a list of Dominican Rite masses? I'd love to check one out.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='thedude' date='Feb 14 2006, 03:59 PM']Anyone know of a website with a list of Dominican Rite masses?  I'd love to check one out.
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I actually thought they had suspended them myself. Much to my surprise otherwise!

[Resurrexi]

[QUOTE]Careful to use Latin to argue and not English. The English is terrible! [/QUOTE]

I could have quoted the concecration in Latin, but then I would have needed to get out my missal...

now about the two Canons compared:

The actions of the priest are different. He does not cross the species nearly as many times. If I recall, in the NO he crosses them once, and in the TLM he crosses them more than 40 times. Also, there are many things that are in parenthesies which are optional. Nothing is optional in the Traditional Canon.

[QUOTE]Per [b]eundem[/b] Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.[/QUOTE]

compare that to.

[QUOTE]Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.)[/QUOTE]

You see, they took out "eundem"


[QUOTE]nobis Corpus et Sanguis fiat [b]dilectissimi [/b]Filii tui, Domini nostri Iesu Christi.
[b](Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.[/b])[/QUOTE]

P. Quam oblationem tu, Deus, in omnibus, quaesumus, benedictam, adscriptam, ratam, rationabilem, acceptabilemque facere digneris,. ut nobis Corpus, et Sanguis [b]fiatdilectissimi [/b]Filii tui Domini nostri Jesu Christi.
The Consecration

they changed dilectissimi to fiatdilectissimi and they added an optional "Per Christum Dominum Nostrum. Amen."



[QUOTE]HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADETUR[/QUOTE]

compare that to

[QUOTE]HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM.[/QUOTE]

they took added "Quod Pro..." and in the English NO they dont say the "Hoc/For" in "For this is my body/ Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meum"


[QUOTE]HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI, QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM
Hoc facite in meam commemorationem.
Mysterium fidei.
A. Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.
[/QUOTE]

compared to

[QUOTE]HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI:
MYSTERIUM FIDEI:
QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM.
Haec quotiescumque feceritis, in mei memoriam facietis.
[/QUOTE]

so many differences that its unbelievable. And the Enliglish NO often has bad translations that take away the orthodoxy of the Latin NO


[QUOTE]Memento etiam, Domine, famulorum famularumque tuarum N. et N. qui nos praecesserunt cum signo fidei, et dormiunt in somno pacis.
Ipsis, domine, et omnibus in Christo quiescentibus, locum refrigerii, lucis et pacis, ut indulgeas, deprecamur.
(Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.)[/QUOTE]

that is alot different than this:

[QUOTE]Memento etiam, Domine, famulorum famularumque tuarum N. et N. qui nos praecesserunt cum signo fidei, et dormiunt in somno pacis. Ipsis, Domine, et omnibus in Christo quiescentibus, locum refrigerii, lucis et pacis, utindulgeas, deprecamur. Per eumdem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.[/QUOTE]

Acutally, I think its mostly out of order, but that's still not good.


[QUOTE]Per ipsum, et cum ipso, et in ipso, est tibi Deo Patri omnipotenti, in unitate Spiritus Sancti, omnis honor et gloria per omnia saecula saeculorum.
Amen.[/QUOTE]

compare

[QUOTE]est tibi Deo Patri omnipotenti,
in unitate Spiritus Sancti,
omnis honor et gloria,
per omnia saecula saeculorum.
S. AMEN![/QUOTE]

I would say they are different.

This was just comparing the new Canon (1st Eucharistic Prayer) to the Old Roman Canon. There are many other differences in both the Mass of the Catechumans/ Liturgy of the Word and the Mass of the Faithful/Liturgy of the Eucharist.


here are some things I am responding to.

[QUOTE]can you elaborate?

can someone explain what the differences are between all these eucharistic prayers?

it's great to obey the Pope.
[/QUOTE]

The Ad Orientam altar is more beautiful than the NO altar

the 1st Eucharistic Prayer is alot like the Roman Canon, thought not exactly the same. The other two are shortened greatly cutting out important prayers.

I do not see how attending the TLM is not obeying the Pope.

[QUOTE]I prefer the Catholic Mass myself [/QUOTE]

If you are saying that you attend the TLM, then I suggest that you shoud know that a properly said NO Mass in Latin; Ad Orientam is very good and Catholic, as is any NO Mass said exactly as the missal says.

If you are saying that you attend the NO, then you should know that the TLM was celebrated for centuries and is much more beautiful, and really Catholic.

[QUOTE]Yes, but in clarification, I don't think it's required for anyone to say the responses. [/QUOTE]

very true!

[QUOTE]The Tridentine Mass is superior in the sense that it is a clearer presentation of Catholic dogma and is aesthetically more pleasing. [/QUOTE]

hey, IQ, you've come to Phatmass I see. Anyways though, I want to say "YES!" to this statement.

[QUOTE]A novus ordo when done wrong is awful, and it shouldn't happen[/QUOTE]

yep.

[QUOTE] a novus ordo when done right is just as beautiful.[/QUOTE]

I dont agree.

[QUOTE]I don't hear Mass, I pray it. It's not felicitous to use language like this, since it makes the faithful look like passive observers when they are supposed to be participating in an active way in prayer. [/QUOTE]

I said before, you can pray the Mass without saying the Mass, and you can pray the Mass while hearing it. To pray the Mass means to watch the Sacrifice and direct our thoughts to God and to adore Christ in the Host.

[QUOTE]Honestly, little Tommy doesn't understand what he is talking about. He is only 12 years old. Someone is feeding him this and I would assume that it is the group over at fisheaters. If it isn't that group then it is someone else.[/QUOTE]

No-one is feeding me this, I choose to believe it myself. And DONT CALL ME TOMMY!

[QUOTE]What I would suggest and I will take it to heart from here (right you two...) is to simply dismiss him as a 12 year old and to remember that he can't possibly know what he is talking about. He doesn't have a working understanding of anything. He doesn't have a legitimate argument on any topic that he has posted.[/QUOTE]

I admit I am 12, I swear that I will be 12 till next July. You cant say to dismiss me as a 12 year old though. You know nothing about me or about my intellect or knowledge. I know more than common sense and what they teach me at school. I HAVE A WORKING UNDERSTANDING ON MANY THINGS! I do have a legitimate arguement on most topics, but I research alot and cannot possibly give a direct quote supporting everything I say. You are very being very uncharitable and very rude to me!

[QUOTE]Most of the "objections" that he raises are canned anyways. They are not even original.[/QUOTE]

They should not be canned, and no arguement is original.

[QUOTE]If he is lying about being 12 so be it, but until he is honest about that, I think that we can simply rustle his hair, pinch his cheeks and tell him to go sit in the breakfast nook with all the other kids until he is confirmed.[/QUOTE]

I plan on getting confirmed in the near future, weather I am confirmed by my bishop, or the bishop of some diocese which is kinder to its adherants of the Traditional Sacraments. And dont tell me what to do.

[QUOTE]At this point, I am so sick of arguing with this child about things that he doesn't understand, I can hardly stand it.[/QUOTE]

I understand more than my parents on most of these subjects so please dont say I don't understand. Its your decision weather you argue with me or not, and if you cant stand it, pretend like I dont exihist.

[QUOTE]So little Tommy, when you grow up, come back and discuss this stuff with us. Until then, respect your elders, respect the Roman Catholic Church as it is. And if you don't, I would suggest that you find the nearest priest and go to Confession. You need to learn what spiritual direction is. And you need to start. That one can never do too early.[/QUOTE]

I will do what I choose, and I choose to discuss this with you now. I try to respect my elders and I do respect the Catholic Church. Go to Confession at least every two weeks, and I do not see that I have said anything sinful. I already know what a spiritual director is.

[QUOTE]Perhaps when you are 18 or 19 you'll be mature enough to discuss this stuff rationally. Until you stop acting like a 12 year old and start acting like an adult, I will simply dismiss you as being a child.[/QUOTE]

I do act more like an adult than most children. I really think you are being very uncharitable.

[QUOTE]So, run along and play little fella, run along.....and stay out of the adults hair. Otherwise I will make hot stuff take your gameboy away again. He's the big meanie around here anyway. That much is perfectly clear. [/QUOTE]

make me run along. I refuse to "stay out of your hair". Just so you know, video games are dumb and a waste of time.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 14 2006, 05:25 PM']I actually thought they had suspended them myself.  Much to my surprise otherwise!
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I think my brother went to one a while back... Something is going on here.

[qfnol31]

[quote]I could have quoted the concecration in Latin, but then I would have needed to get out my missal...[/quote]

The only difference between the two is actually Mysterium Fidei and it's place.

now about the two Canons compared:

[quote]The actions of the priest are different. He does not cross the species nearly as many times. If I recall, in the NO he crosses them once, and in the TLM he crosses them more than 40 times. Also, there are many things that are in parenthesies which are optional. Nothing is optional in the Traditional Canon.[/quote]

That is true, but most Priests I know use them anyways.

As for crossing the host and wine and Sacred Species, this isn't strictly necessary for anything (thought it is of sorts a blessing) and so, though valid, doesn't actually change the Canon itself.

[quote]"Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen."

compare that to.

"Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.)"

You see, they took out "eundem"[/quote]

This will sound bad, but I'm not positive they did. (The site, as I'll show in a minute, has some typos.)

Anyways, in response to the difference of words, eundem means "Himself" or the same Him...it's only an intensifier here and so doesn't change the meaning in or out.

[quote]"nobis Corpus et Sanguis fiat dilectissimi Filii tui, Domini nostri Iesu Christi.
(Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.)"

"P. Quam oblationem tu, Deus, in omnibus, quaesumus, benedictam, adscriptam, ratam, rationabilem, acceptabilemque facere digneris,. ut nobis Corpus, et Sanguis fiatdilectissimi Filii tui Domini nostri Jesu Christi.
The Consecration
"
they changed dilectissimi to fiatdilectissimi and they added an optional "Per Christum Dominum Nostrum. Amen."[/quote]

That is a typo...if you look back, fiat was there, but it got run together in this one because, as I said, of typos. I'm serious about that because I fixed some of them before I posted.

As for the optional part, it is still optional.

[quote][quote]HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADETUR[/quote]

compare that to

[quote]HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM.[/quote]

they took added "Quod Pro..." and in the English NO they dont say the "Hoc/For" in "For this is my body/ Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meum"[/quote]

Again, we can't really discuss the English, but I think this is my mistake by not finishing it (I had to correct this part as it was erroneous on the website since it wasn't in CAPS, which it is in the Roman Missal itself).

[quote][quote]HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI, QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM
Hoc facite in meam commemorationem.
Mysterium fidei.
A. Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.
[/quote]

compared to

[quote]HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI:
MYSTERIUM FIDEI:
QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM.
Haec quotiescumque feceritis, in mei memoriam facietis.
[/quote]

so many differences that its unbelievable. And the Enliglish NO often has bad translations that take away the orthodoxy of the Latin NO[/quote]

Only difference there is the "Mysterium Fidei" and the response.

Again, I limit this to Latin because the Novus Ordo is in Latin and to compare the English to the Tridentine is to fall into the same trap that most modern (American/English) Catholics do...namely that it should be in the vernacular (something with which I disagree).

[qfnol31]

[quote][quote]Memento etiam, Domine, famulorum famularumque tuarum N. et N. qui nos praecesserunt cum signo fidei, et dormiunt in somno pacis.
Ipsis, domine, et omnibus in Christo quiescentibus, locum refrigerii, lucis et pacis, ut indulgeas, deprecamur.
(Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.)[/quote]

that is alot different than this:

[quote]Memento etiam, Domine, famulorum famularumque tuarum N. et N. qui nos praecesserunt cum signo fidei, et dormiunt in somno pacis. Ipsis, Domine, et omnibus in Christo quiescentibus, locum refrigerii, lucis et pacis, utindulgeas, deprecamur. Per eumdem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.[/quote]

Acutally, I think its mostly out of order, but that's still not good.[/quote]

Again, I'll put this up to error, but it might be my own. Part of the problem you're finding between these two is how they did the English translation...one did it underneath and one did it to the right. I edited it and in the Novus Ordo I didn't take out the spaces between the paragraphs...that is one reason why you see so many incongruities where they're actually exactly the same.

[quote][quote]Per ipsum, et cum ipso, et in ipso, est tibi Deo Patri omnipotenti, in unitate Spiritus Sancti, omnis honor et gloria per omnia saecula saeculorum.
Amen.[/quote]

compare

[quote]est tibi Deo Patri omnipotenti,
in unitate Spiritus Sancti,
omnis honor et gloria,
per omnia saecula saeculorum.
S. AMEN![/quote]
I would say they are different.
[/quote]

Try looking at the second without spaces...they're the same I think.

This was just comparing the new Canon (1st Eucharistic Prayer) to the Old Roman Canon. There are many other differences in both the Mass of the Catechumans/ Liturgy of the Word and the Mass of the Faithful/Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Oh, that's true all right! I was just responding to something you said on the Canon.