What makes a healthy parish?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Feb 19 2006, 12:42 PM']Thought I'd throw some randoms in as a former Catholic. One, if it were a conservative priest, it wouldn't necessarily be any more attended at least as far as attendig goes. Often times conservative priests scare away the public. Then you'd complain about the liberal laity.
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Tell that to my pastor who loses parishioners to Fr. Val Peter down the street who has at least 1000 people at every Mass every Sunday in a chapel that only seats 600 or so.

Fr. Val Peter writes for Our Sunday Visitor.

Besides, the Lincoln Diocese provides wonderful statistics. The bishop recognized those who wished to excommunicate themselves. The Newman Center in Lincoln, a COLLEGE PARISH at a LIBERAL state institution, is the most orthodox parish in the most orthodox diocese in the United States. Fr. Robert Matya there attracts tons of students with his orthodoxy.

You might not get as many people to come to Church when you're orthodox, but you won't get any fewer faithful people.

Those who would leave because of orthodoxy weren't going to Mass for the right reasons, anyway.

We must pray that they return, but we mustn't think that smaller numbers means less faithful people.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 19 2006, 01:06 PM']I think that all things being equal, because you included adoration, it speaks directly to hot stuff's point.  I think that you'll find that most parishes, liberal or conservative that flourish have some form of adoration.

People, whether liberal or conservative, are moved by the Real Presence.  I firmly believe that it is this phenomenon, coupled with regular applications of the other Sacraments that makes the parish flourish, not liberalism or conservatism.
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I was really speaking in my post about orthodoxy vs. heterodoxy, not about political persuasions - thus my use of words "conservative" and "liberal" in quotes.
"Liberal Catholicism" is commonly used to mean modernist-leaning "Catholicism" which tends to reject or question the authority of the Church and Scripture and Church moral and doctrinal teaching, which downplays the sacredness of the liturgy and the sacraments, favoring various goofy "innovations," and which focuses on "social" political agendas at the expense of moral and spiritual teaching.

(And, incidentally, in my experience, orthodox Catholics tend to also lean conservative politically, and "liberal" Catholics tend to lean politically left, though that is a whole different topic and is not directly relevant to my points.)

[Cam42]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 19 2006, 03:31 PM']I was really speaking in my post about orthodoxy vs. heterodoxy, not about political persuasions - thus my use of words "conservative" and "liberal" in quotes.
"Liberal Catholicism" is commonly used to mean modernist-leaning "Catholicism" which tends to reject or question the authority of the Church and Scripture and Church moral and doctrinal teaching, which downplays the sacredness of the liturgy and the sacraments, favoring various goofy "innovations," and which focuses on "social" political agendas at the expense of moral and spiritual teaching.

(And, incidentally, in my experience, orthodox Catholics tend to also lean conservative politically, and "liberal" Catholics tend to lean politically left, though that is a whole different topic and is not directly relevant to my points.)
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I know what you meant.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Feb 19 2006, 01:07 PM']Oh, and what I think MC/Akalyte the Just is referring to is the fact that "the spirit of Vatican 2" is often used as a "code word" to try to impose a heterodox agenda on the church.  I would like to think that we ALL know that Vatican II did NOT get rid of the 7 sacraments or the 10 commandments.
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thats exactly what i was getting at. i'm no schismatic and i accept the council. Thanks...

Edited February 19, 2006 by MC Just

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 19 2006, 02:12 PM']I know what you meant.
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Orthodox Catholic parishes promote such things as Eucharistic adoration, and proper understanding and respect for the Blessed Sacrament and other sacraments.
"Liberal Catholicism" for the most part does not.

If you know what I mean, good. No need to try to start a fight over this.

[Lilllabettt]

What makes a healthy parish? Adoration, devotions, reverential liturgy ... gives parishes strong bones and big biceps.

And another thing ... cassocks. Yup. Matrix-style.

[journeyman]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 19 2006, 12:41 PM']

The dicocese, which also tends to be one of the most orthodox and "conservative" in the country has also seen comparitively large numbers of vocations, while "liberal" dicoceses are suffering a "vocations crisis."



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Arlington?

Adding Adoration was my contribution to the last parish council "long range planning" question . . .

I suspect I need to start researching the benefits so I can quantify why it should be a higher priority than I suspect it will receive

[KnightofChrist]

Teaching the word of Jesus Christ. Plus the evangelization of those whom are not Catholic. Equals a stonger and healthier parish. Many times Catholics fail to evangelize. I purpose priest before, at or after mass ask whose who are not Catholic to learn more about Christ and His Church, by giving out some kind of prayer book or info about RCIA. Many people come to mass that are not catholic, but if they are never invinted to stay why would they?

[Myles Domini]

Everyone watching Fr Groeschel's show on the Church right now, yeah?

[Dave]

Loyalty to the Holy Father + Devotion to the Holy Eucharist + Devotion to Our Blessed Mother = Healthy, Faithful Parish

[Jaime]

[quote]The dicocese, which also tends to be one of the most orthodox and "conservative" in the country has also seen comparitively large numbers of vocations, while "liberal" dicoceses are suffering a "vocations crisis."

There does seem to be a connection between orthodoxy and growth - something which "liberal Catholics" seem to "just not get."
I know of few willing to travel great distances, or even relocate, to be part of a liberal parish.
[/quote]

My parish has

girl altar servers
extraordinary ministers blessing small children during mass
youth masses
stands at the wrong time
has guitars

and is growing at an alarming rate

Of course the growth occurred 8 months ago when they answers the requests for adoration.

[shortnun]

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:52 PM']My parish has been led by liberal priests for the past 15 years and is slowly but surely crumbling.  It is NOT growing.

That's my experience with how liberalism IN Catholicism does not grow a healthy Catholic parish.

I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.  I am utterly frustrated with it.
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As a former long-time member of a parish in your Archdiocese, I'd love to hear you elaborate more about your parish, particularly b/c I (and Era Might) would love to know what [i]you personally[/i] mean by "healthy."

N.B.: I am not asking you to disclose the name of your parish by any means. But perhaps you can compare/contrast your experience in your parish with others (highlighting similarities and differences, not making judgements of course).

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 19 2006, 10:22 AM']adoration

Once that happens, everything else falls into place.
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The [b][url="http://www.archatl.com/liturgy/adoration.html"]Archdiocese of Atlanta[/url] [/b](which is where Desert Walker is, and where I am from) has 10 churches with perpetual adoration and 50 more parishes with adoration at least once a month.

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 19 2006, 01:36 PM']You sure are talking about the Council.  If there was no Vatican Council II would there be a "spirit" of Vatican II?  No.
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Cam, you and I certainly have our theological differences, but this was a most beautiful and well articulated response. THANK YOU!

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 19 2006, 07:13 PM']My parish has

girl altar servers
extraordinary ministers blessing small children during mass
youth masses
stands at the wrong time
has guitars

and is growing at an alarming rate

Of course the growth occurred 8 months ago when they answers the requests for adoration.
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Let's not equal the things listed above as being directly linked to a decreased number of parishioners. Correlation does not equal causation. Forgive me, hot stuff, if I'm putting words into your mouth. While there should be rules, regulations, and guidelines, I do not think that any of those things you listed are "bad." But they certainly do set the bar high for how we educate the church as a whole!!!

[Jaime]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Feb 19 2006, 07:32 PM']
Cam, you and I certainly have our theological differences, but this was a most beautiful and well articulated response. THANK YOU!
Let's not equal the things listed above as being directly linked to a decreased number of parishioners. Correlation does not equal causation. Forgive me, hot stuff, if I'm putting words into your mouth. While there should be rules, regulations, and guidelines, I do not think that any of those things you listed are "bad." But they certainly do set the bar high for how we educate the church as a whole!!!
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Oh I agree with you. I was just enlightening the masses that its not orthodox plus adoration. Its adoration that makes churches healthy.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 19 2006, 08:39 PM']Oh I agree with you.  I was just enlightening the masses that its not orthodox plus adoration.  Its adoration that makes churches healthy.
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It's Jesus that makes churches healthy. The more welcoming the reception of Himself, the healthier the church will be. The healthier it is, the more orthodox.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 19 2006, 06:48 PM']It's Jesus that makes churches healthy.  The more welcoming the reception of Himself, the healthier the church will be.  The healthier it is, the more orthodox.
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True.

I don't know why people seem to be taking issue with my claims about the importance of othodoxy.
Where there is true love for Jesus Christ, there will be love for and following of His Truth.
Following of the Truth of Christ = orthodoxy.

Orthodoxy by itself, without love of Christ, will save no one. (As a priest I knew used to say, "The Devil is superbly orthodox.") However, true love of Christ will lead one to seek orthodoxy, and following orthodox Catholic teaching and taking it to hear will lead to holiness.

The spirit of dissent found in "liberal Catholicism" is contrary to following Christ and does not lead to spiritual holiness. This is not to say that there cannot be holiness in imperfect parishes, yet it is pure foolishness to dismiss orthodoxy as something irrelevent to spiritual health.

[photosynthesis]

What makes parishes thrive? Well, a lot of things. I've seen growth in a lot of different parishes, and stagnation in others.

One thing that makes parishes thrive is missionary spirit. Parishes that reach out to the community are more likely to grow, because the better equipped parishioners are to share the Gospel, the more lives they touch. I currently go to a parish that is best described as boring and "blah." Some people are very orthodox, some are lukewarm. People seem to be more wrapped up in parish politics than growing in their own faith + teaching it to others. Insular parishes don't grow.

But my parish down in Baltimore is growing, because (a) they have Eucharistic adoration, (b) they have orthodox priests, and © people there are generous with their faith, as well as their financial + spiritual resources. Even though most people I know there are older than me, they were very generous and loving. I never had to worry about not getting to Mass or parish activities (like Legion of Mary), because I didn't have a car. Someone always volunteered to pick me up. When I was very sick with mono, I knew I could rely on one of the parish ladies to give me a ride to the doctor's. I always saw people from the parish at festivals + the state fair, handing out rosaries, miraculous medals + "invitations" to Mass and the adoration chapel, and they did this with sensitivity.

Parishes that evangelize grow because more people know they exist, and the individual parishioners usually have more knowledge of apologetics than the average Catholic.

[Cam42]

You're welcome Shortnun.

We have theological differences? Who knew?

[Desert Walker]

My parish has had perpetual adoration for several years. I agree that it makes a good parish. But at least one of the priests at my parish has said privately that he is against adoration of the Eucharist, and his homilies seem to reflect that point of view.

My archdiocese has become VERY orthodox in recent years with a large number of vocations (none of which are from my parish). My brother is applying to the archdiocesan formation program. When he asked our pastor for a letter of recommendation he said that he disagreed with the way the vocation director of the archdiocese conducts priestly formation. I'm very familiar with the program. It's very orthodox.

The majority of the people at my parish are rather old, and most of the people with money have left in the past few years. All the surrounding parishes are staffed by archdiocesan priests and are vibrant and growing. My diocese has an annual Eucharistic Congress which is an absolutely AWESOME event. My pastor, as well as much of the parish staff, do not support this congress. I know this because my sister works in the office and attends the meetings and this is what she heard them say.

The priests who staff my parish are from a religious order. They're not diocesan and don't agree with they way the surrounding diocese does things. In fact I think they seek to insulate my parish FROM its own diocese! They may or may not be doing this intentionally (that is, in a sinister conspiratorial way ) but I think the facts speak for themselves!

Edited February 20, 2006 by Desert Walker

[Ora et Labora]

A strong orthodox priest!!! With out the backbone.....away goes the parish!

































bye bye!!

[MC Just]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Feb 20 2006, 11:25 AM']A strong orthodox priest!!! With out the backbone.....away goes the parish!
bye bye!!
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True That..