Independent Chapels

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

does an independent Chapel Fufill a sunday Obligation?

[Paladin]

I wouldn't think so... Sunday obligation is to attend Mass. Unless you're a priest and saying Mass privately, I don't think it'd count.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 5 2006, 09:27 AM']does an independent Chapel Fufill a sunday Obligation?
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Only if the attendee is impeded from attending Mass at a church that is in union with Rome (ie. the independent chapel is the only Mass for hundreds of miles).

It is the same situation applied when one must attend an Orthodox Liturgy.

It is never to be accepted as a normative action, only in the gravest of circumstances......

The Mass is not invalid, but it is illicit. All of this assumes that the priest is validly ordained.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

I think im going to one next sunday. hopefully. I would go to an indult but there ain't any around where i will be. I might go to an SSPX if i don't go to the independent chapel.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 5 2006, 11:58 AM']I think im going to one next sunday. hopefully. I would go to an indult but there ain't any around where i will be. I might go to an SSPX  if i don't go to the independent chapel.
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Wrong answer. I was not speaking of the indult. [b]You have a right to the Sacraments. However [i]you [u]do not[/u] have a right[/i] to whatever Sacrament you wish to go to[/b]......if there is a Novus Ordo parish available, you cannot simply skip it, and go to an independent chapel because there is no indult parish around.

Sorry....but that is contrary to the Church's understanding of Sacramental theology. And you would be skipping a licit Mass intentionally for a schimatic Mass. That, according to the Church, is unacceptable.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

does that mean i should not attend an illict Novus Ordo Mass?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 5 2006, 12:30 PM']does that mean i should not attend an illict Novus Ordo  Mass?
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No, that means you should attend the Mass which is recognized as valid and licit by Rome; not yourself or some person whom you hold in high regard.

Whether you like it or not, the Missa Normativa is the accpeted Mass. Your obligation is to attend that Mass, in order to fulfill your obligation. If you choose to attend an indult, you may do so, but not as a normative action, but rather as an indult to the normative action.

If you skip the normative Mass or the indult Mass, in order to attend an independent/SSPX/Orthodox Mass/Liturgy. That is being disobedient to Rome.

I have a feeling you already know this though, Sam.....please don't be coy.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

no i am talking about the Novus Ordo mass. If one is licit and one is not would i have to chose the lict one to attend?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 5 2006, 12:44 PM']no i am talking about the Novus Ordo mass. If one is licit and one is not would i have to chose the lict one to attend?
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You would have to go to the accepted Mass. Who is deeming the Mass illicit? You? You don't have any authority to do that. Only the local Ordinary/Pope does.

The Pope has deemed the independent/SSPX/Orthodox to be illicit and only to be allowed in dire need.

You cannot make the determination that you are trying to make. You have no right to call a Mass licit or illicit, unless Rome has deemed it as such. When Rome has dealt it as such, then one can support that decision, as in the case of an independent/SSPX priest. But again, I think that you already know that.

So, NO, you cannot choose which one to go to. You can choose which one best fits your devotional style, however, the validity and/or licitness of the Mass is not in question, just your personal preference.

Also, you must take into account, that parish boundaries still play a part in all of this. You should attend the local parish, unless there is a sufficient reason not to.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

what about abuses?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 5 2006, 12:54 PM']what about abuses?
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[quote name='Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum #184']Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.[/quote]

If you see an abuse, follow what the Church teaches. The local Ordinary then will make a determination. You don't have that authority.

[Era Might]

"Let that be a valid Eucharist which is celebrated under the authority of the Bishop." --St. Ignatius of Antioch

[Cam42]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 5 2006, 01:09 PM']"Let that be a valid Eucharist which is celebrated under the authority of the Bishop." --St. Ignatius of Antioch
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Ding, ding, ding........

[catholicinsd]

Great to have Sam back.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='catholicinsd' date='Mar 5 2006, 11:28 AM']Great to have Sam back.
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yep...lol

[Amator Veritatis]

I just read this thread and thought I would pose a situation to those learnèd members of the forums who feel compelled to answer. If every [i]Novus Ordo Missae[/i] in one's diocese (or at least in one's general area) is replete with abuses and sacrilegious and scandalous liturgical actions, would one be permitted to assist at a Mass not recognised by the local ordinary? Further, if a person's faith and that of his family were at stake as a result of Modernist sermons and the sacrilegious manner in which the Holy Eucharist is treated, would he be permitted to bring his family to a Mass not recognised by the local ordinary which is certainly valid and only illicit--if it be illicit at all--as a result of the fact that it be not recognised by the local ordinary? If the answer is in the negative, what are the reasons for this response, and what are the references to support them? Thank you.

Edited March 8, 2006 by Amator Veritatis

[Cam42]

[quote name='Amator Veritatis']If every Novus Ordo Missae in one's diocese (or at least in one's general area) is replete with abuses and sacrilegious and scandalous liturgical actions, would one be permitted to assist at a Mass not recognised by the local ordinary?[/quote]

In a word, no. One has the right to the Sacrament, not the one of his choosing. We do not have the right to attend whatever Mass we choose. We have the right to Mass. If we take issue with what goes on at Mass, we are compelled to present it first to the pastor, then to the local Ordinary, then to the Holy See. (cf. Redemptoris Sacramentum #183-184)

[quote name='Redemptoris Sacramentum #183']In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.[/quote]

[quote name='Redemptoris Sacramentum #184']Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.[/quote]
[i]CIC can. 1417 § 1[/i]

However, we cannot simply abandon the Missa Normativa. This is contrary to all Catholic Tradition. This is alluded to in Ecclesia Dei #5a.

[quote name='Ecclesia Dei #5a']The outcome of the movement promoted by Mons. Lefebvre can and must be, for all the Catholic faithful, a motive for sincere reflection concerning their own fidelity to the Church's Tradition, authentically interpreted by the ecclesiastical Magisterium, ordinary and extraordinary, especially in the Ecumenical Councils from Nicaea to Vatican II. From this reflection all should draw a renewed and efficacious conviction of the necessity of strengthening still more their fidelity by rejecting erroneous interpretations and arbitrary and unauthorized applications in matters of doctrine, liturgy and discipline.[/quote]

So, in a word, no, we cannot simply abandon the Missa Normativa for the Independents.

[quote name='Amator Veritatis']Further, if a person's faith and that of his family were at stake as a result of Modernist sermons and the sacrilegious manner in which the Holy Eucharist is treated, would he be permitted to bring his family to a Mass not recognised by the local ordinary which is certainly valid and only illicit--if it be illicit at all--as a result of the fact that it be not recognised by the local ordinary?[/quote]

Again, the answer is no. For the very same reasons.

[goldenchild17]

Sam I won't get involved because it seems the last thread I responded to was closed. But I don't see anything in any document that says there must be no licit Mass for an illicit Mass to fulfill the Sunday obligation. It is valid, though illicit and sinful according to the Church, but according to those documents in the closed thread I don't see how it would not fulfill the Sunday obligation if it is valid. BTW, I don't advocate going(at least not at this point in my search ) but I don't see how it would not fulfill the Sunday obligation.

[Cam42]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Mar 9 2006, 12:56 AM'] But I don't see anything in any document that says there must be no licit Mass for an illicit Mass to fulfill the Sunday obligation.  [right][snapback]907084[/snapback][/right]
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That is because it had been discussed in other documentation and in other letters.....that is why this statement was worded the way it was, from Mons. Camille Perl:

[quote name='Letter by Msgr. Camille Perl Regarding Society of St. Pius X Masses #2'][b]We have already told you that we cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass and have explained the reason why.[/b][/quote]

He also says earlier that in a strict sense; yes the obligation is fulfilled.

However, in a strict sense, attend the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox fulfills the Sunday obligation, but Catholics don't run off to the Eastern Liturgy willy nilly.

It is amazing how far out of context this gets taken. It is morally illicit to attend the Mass of the SSPX.

[cpp]

I asked my spiritual director if I could stop going to my parish on sundays (because the music and the abuses and the heterodoxies distracted me from praying) and he said that it was OK. One should be focused on the Mass, and not on what the priest came up with; it's dangerous for the soul. Attending irreverent Masses can lead to distraction, anger, murmuration, and things like that -which are bad for the soul.

(Obviously that doesn't cover non-catholic Masses. Only Rome-approved®, schism-free, Catholic-rite Masses)