" hell and being *SAVED* "

[Guest]

[url="http://www.av1611.org/hell.html"]http://www.av1611.org/hell.html[/url]

[Guest]

I guess i dont really know what the debate is exactly........mabey.....basically is it as easy to be saved as they say it is ? and mabey the argument about hell being at the center of the earth...

[Paladin]

These guys seem to be the hard core Protestant Baptist type. Their main page says they're "King James Bible believing ministry." Even the most conservative mainstream Baptists don't cling to the "Only the King James Bible is true" belief. They're probably absolute literatalists in biblical interpretation regarding sola fidei. For them, all you need to do is ask Jesus into your heart, accept him as your Lord and Savior, close personal relationship, etc. Though the cite a lot of passages, an examination of the Bible as a whole would prove them wrong re: sola fidei salvation. As for their interpretation of Hell... well, it's a little more literal than I'd look at it, but they're basically right as it being a just punishment for sins and all.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

They have an alledged recording of voices in Hell. Hmmm...

[Quietfire]

gosh, I remember this site from like.....2 years ago.

That recording gave me the creeps.

[kdewolf2]

[quote]The writers certainly themselves believed hell to be real and geographically 'beneath' the earth's surface. . .
To say this is not scientific is to assume science knows much more about the earth's interior than is actually the case. The great 'pit' [hell] would only need to be about 100 miles or less in diameter to contain, with much room to spare, all the forty billion or so people who have ever lived, assuming their 'spiritual' bodies are the same size as their physical bodies."
(Henry M. Morris, The Bible Has the Answer, p. 220)[/quote]


Spiritual bodies? 100 miles or less?

[quote]Caspar Peucer, a famous fourteenth century astronomer and physician, who also researched and documented the volcanoe eruptions at Heklafell wrote some very frightening information in his research findings. Peucer, claims (as others) that "fearful howlings, weeping and gnashing of teeth" could be heard "for many miles. . ." as these volcanoes erupted:

[/quote]

Yes, of course, the vast scientific expertise of the fourteenth century....

[quote]Jesus said explicitly — THEIR worm — not a worm, or the worm — but THEIR worm. The Bible teaches that Christians will one day have a body like the Lord Jesus Christ. Could it be, as some Bible students teach — that men and women in hell take on the form of their father, Satan (John 8:44)? In Revelation 12:3, Satan is described as a red dragon. Could Jesus Christ be referring to the body lost men and women will have for eternity?
[/quote]

Interesting use of biblical allegory....

[quote]Scientists recently discovered cracks on the ocean floor where fire was leaking out. Do you know what they found around these fire-breathing vents in the crust? Eight-foot long worms, found no other place in the world! The book, The Deep Sea, by Joseph Wallace (p.39), reads, "Perhaps the strangest of ocean creatures recently discovered are Riftia, the giant tube WORMS. Measuring up to 8 feet in length, the worms are ONLY FOUND NEAR DEEP SEA VENTS."

[/quote]

Does this mean that lost souls are escaping from Hades?

I loved the audio recording.

Firstly, I'd like to point out that the soul is a spiritual rather than a physical entity; it does not, by itself, constitute a body. There are no spiritual bodies.

I think we can conclude from this, that until the resurrection rejoins body and soul, Hell is principally experienced as a psychological phenomenon (psyche = soul).

Secondly, "worm" is a figurative expression. Satan is a fallen angel, not a literal dragon.

Thirdly, what lacks spatial dimensions does not occupy space. The soul is separate from the body. The body has extension in space; it extends in three separate dimensions. The soul lacks extension; it is not a material body. Therefore it does not occupy space.

It's like the old riddle, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" My opinion is that all the billions of souls who have ever lived could be sufficiently tortured with the flame of a candlestick, and don't require so much as a millimeter of space beneath the earth to hold them.

Like I said, Hell is psychological (i.e. occurring within the soul).

So, what is the fire?

The sting of remorse, the bitterness of eternal separation from God, perhaps a sensation of "burning" associated with the above? I don't know.

I do know, however, Jesus often spoke in parables. He said the wheat would be separated from the chaff, and the chaff would be thrown into the furnace, i.e. discarded. I know "Gehenna" was a place outside the gates of Jerusalem were trash was burned.

The emphasis of the parables seems to lay in the sense of destruction and ruin associated with fire.

I wouldn't lay any more stress on Christ "descending" into Hell than I would on Hell being an "outer darkness." Jesus was in the belly of the earth for three days because His body was laid in the tomb. His soul "descended" into Hell, spatially or metaphysically, I know not. My assumption would be metaphysically, unless there was a passageway to the center of the earth hidden inside Christ's tomb.

The outer darkness is exclusion from the heavenly banquet. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth, because these lost souls are excluded from the light and warmth and joy within.

My own sentiment is that a soul could be living in Hell before his feet ever touched the fire.

The tract seems, on the whole, more calculated to destroy people's faith than encourage it. The absurdity of it is gross, palpable, and sickening.

If I had to rely on such literature to inform my faith, I would probably be an atheist or an agnostic by now.

The recording is really very good, though. I can only wonder at the magnificence of God providing the lost souls with vocal cords to scream aand moan properly with, and I'm really very privileged I now know what eight-foot subterranean dragon-worm/souls sound like.

Finally, I'd simply like to say that God separates the sheep from the goats, He will not discriminate simply on the faith of the sheep and the unbelief of the goats. Rather, the decisive questions will be: Have you fed me when I was hungry? Clothed me when I was naked? Visited me while I was in prison? Have you loved your God with your whole heart and soul and have you loved your neighbor as yourself? Have you forgiven your debtors, even seventy times seven times, and have you prayed for and blessed your enemies?

What does it even mean to have a "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ as savior if one does not imitate his life and example?