Evolution

[kdewolf2]

[quote]You separate the body and soul (spiritual and matter) when it is convenient for you, and then make them inseperable again when it serves your own biased purposes. [/quote]

Forgive me, but I don't see how this is so. It's clear from the Bible that God created Adam's body before He imparted the breath of life. Even if you want to insist that God intervened directly and supernaturally and without any secondary causes to produce Adam's body from the dust, you still have to admit the production of the body preceded the infusion of the soul. The soul is distinct from the body, but it's also joined to the body, once it has been so joined, and it is the whole man who sins, who falls, and who dies. So, we see that Adam died not only spiritually once he ate the fruit but also physically. Obviously, he died spiritually before he died physically, and the latter only as a result of the former. I don't know. Perhaps it would be easier simply to say that Adam died spiritually the very day he sinned, rather than spiritually then and only physically later so that the day encompassed a wide span of time. But, I wanted to avoid that because I've seen the argument used to support the contention that Adam would have died physically even if he had not sinned, since the death involved in sin was spiritual only, which is one of the contentions of the Pelagians that was condemned by the Church.

[quote]Rather I like to think that God is more involved than 'letting everything take its own spin' for billions of years and then jumping back in to throw a soul into man and taking off again.[/quote]

I'd heartily disagree with such a characterization of evolution. It is intrinsically atheistic, or at least Deistic. I said, evolution is guided by divine providence in conjunction with natural law. I said, God shaped evolution by His own hand. He established the natural laws which directed evolution at the very beginning of the universe. He continuously created and sustained the universe in existence. I specifically said, it is not the result of mere chance; it is God's handiwork in creation, a product of design, intelligence, and conscious intent. He didn't simply "let everything take its own spin." He is more involved. He is deeply involved, in the very bonding of atoms and electrons and the so-called fluctuations within quantum energy. The Lord knows, if nobody else, the precise velocity and location of electrons simultaneously. He can also solve Zeno's paradoxes infallibly. The accumulations of genetic changes and environmental forces which produce "natural selection" and "variation" are no accident with God. Sorry, I'm beginning to lose track of myself. I'm not talking about "letting things take their own spin." I'm talking about a potter making vessels with His own hands, kneading and shaping every contour in the spinning clay; not an avant-garde artist casually flinging paint on a canvas without regard to form or purpose. I believe such a conception of God, actively involved in and determining the smallest details of creation, applies not only to the production of living creatures, but the whole course of the universe and life and existence. God is sovereignly in control; His interventions don't have to be "miraculous" or made in defiance of natural laws, because the divine decrees ("Let there be....") constitute the very structure of the universe.

[quote]But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith?"[/quote]

This is precisely what I would affirm, regardless of specific theories about the origins of the universe. The truth conveyed in these words is truly spiritual and transcendent, and will not be overthrown by any advances in science.

[quote]Oh, and the only geocentrists I know of are traditional Catholics [/quote]

There are also fundamentalist Protestants and mere iconoclasts who adhere to such a position. It is by no means unique to traditional Catholics, nor do I fully understand why a Catholic would assent to such a position, other than merely for the sake of the kind of biblical literalism described in [url="http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm"]The Flat-Earth Bible[/url].

I deeply resent the charge of "bias," though. Skeptical, perhaps, but not biased.

[rkwright]

I didn't mean to hijack this thread a few posts ago, sorry kde. I think I might have been a little too picky about your conclusion earlier and I think we're on the same page. Adam did indeed die that day he ate the fruit, a spiritual death that also brought on a natural death. So the day is both literal and figurative then? So then your conclusion is correct, a day is not always a day, but also a day is a day.

Again this is all semtanics at this point though, I think we're in agreement...

[quote] I believe such a conception of God, actively involved in and determining the smallest details of creation, applies not only to the production of living creatures, but the whole course of the universe and life and existence. God is sovereignly in control[/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree with this, especially the last line. God's sovereignty puts Him in control of every moment.