Catholics/Christians and Law/Government

[Socrates]

Should Catholics or other Christians work to support laws or political candidates who would support laws which support Catholic/Christian moral principles?

I'm discussing things like laws concerning abortion, "gay marriage," "civil unions," and the like.

[Amator Veritatis]

Catholics have a moral obligation to work for Catholic laws in society. Contrary positions have been condemned extensively, especially in the Syllabus of Errors of Blessed Pope Pius IX.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Amator Veritatis' date='Mar 15 2006, 06:44 PM']Catholics have a moral obligation to work for Catholic laws in society. Contrary positions have been condemned extensively, especially in the Syllabus of Errors of Blessed Pope Pius IX.
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One of my exs is a liberal democrat. She believes that we have no right to impose a belief system on others. While it is indeed more praiseworthy and desired that others comes to the Truth of their own will and volition, no one has a right to sin.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Paphnutius

[Era Might]

The moral law is a matter of common human nature. While we can't impose, for example, the Immaculate Conception, because that would be an imposition of religion, condemned by the Church, we must shape society by the principles of natural law.

That is not to say everything must be made illegal, or punished. The role of law is to protect the common good. The Church can tolerate sin as long as it does not transgress the common good. (For example, we don't need to imprison people for having impure thoughts.)

Edited March 16, 2006 by Era Might

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 16 2006, 04:57 AM']The moral law is a matter of common human nature. While we can't impose, for example, the Immaculate Conception, because that would be an imposition of religion, condemned by the Church, we must shape society by the principles of natural law.

That is not to say everything must be made illegal, or punished. The role of law is to protect the common good. The Church can tolerate sin as long as it does not transgress the common good. (For example, we don't need to imprison people for having impure thoughts.)
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[/quote]
Exactly, though a number of left-leaning Catholics on here have claimed that Church teachings about homosexuality and other moral issues are purely religious teachings, and thus (according to them) should have no bearing on secular law. Thus, they argue against laws not recognizing homosexual "civil unions," barring "gay adoption," and the like.

I say that is absolute hogwash; for law, by its very nature, must recognize some sort of morality. If it is not informed by the true understanding of morality and human nature (as taught by the Church), it will be informed by a false understanding, contrary to the truth of the Church, and to the common good.

I was hoping this poll might stir up some lively discussion and debate on this issue, but it seems everyone here agrees that it is indeed madness to disagree on this issue!

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Paphnutius']no one has a right to sin.[/quote]

Why not? I thought people were free to reject God if they so wanted to? Isn't that why God gave them free will?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Mar 16 2006, 07:09 PM'][quote name='Paphnutius']no one has a right to sin.[/quote]

Why not? I thought people were free to reject God if they so wanted to? Isn't that why God gave them free will?
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[/quote]

You have a 'freedom' to sin, not a right. You do not have the 'right' to kill your neighbor, but because you have been given free will, you may choose to do so. However, there are consequences to your actions.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Mar 16 2006, 06:53 PM']I was hoping this poll might stir up some lively discussion and debate on this issue, but it seems everyone here agrees that it is indeed madness to disagree on this issue! 
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Or, people think it's pointless to have such a discussion here. One or the other.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 16 2006, 06:16 PM'][quote]
Why not? I thought people were free to reject God if they so wanted to? Isn't that why God gave them free will?
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[/quote]

You have a 'freedom' to sin, not a right. You do not have the 'right' to kill your neighbor, but because you have been given free will, you may choose to do so. However, there are consequences to your actions.
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[/quote]
True. If we take the position that it is wrong for the state to put [i]any[/i] restrictions on one's "free will," the only logically consistent position total anarchism.

Obviously any law will put some kind of restrictions on ones free will, or more specifically, on the "right" to exercise one's free will without penalty.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Mar 16 2006, 07:00 PM']Or, people think it's pointless to have such a discussion here. One or the other.
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If you agree with me, good.
If you disagree with me, feel free to make an argument.
If you want no part in this discussion, nobody's making you post here.

[Semalsia]

I voted yes. Of course you should. Who wouldn't try to make the world as they wanted it to be, to make it better? I know I vote to advocate my own morals. And if I were catholic with catholic morals, I'd ban gay marriage in a heartbeat. It just smells of elderberries to be one of those who disagree, but ... you know ... they're wrong. So it's not like their opinion really matters.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Mar 16 2006, 08:56 PM']I voted yes. Of course you should. Who wouldn't try to make the world as they wanted it to be, to make it better? I know I vote to advocate my own morals. And if I were catholic with catholic morals, I'd ban gay marriage in a heartbeat. It just smells of elderberries to be one of those who disagree, but ... you know ... they're wrong. So it's not like their opinion really matters.
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[/quote]

They matter though. And their thoughts matter. That is where evangelization comes in. The idea being that God is God - Creator, Lord, Savior, Father. By bringing them into intimacy with God, they are filled in ways in which they are failing to find fulfillment through sin.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Mar 16 2006, 06:09 PM'][quote name='Paphnutius']no one has a right to sin.[/quote]Why not? I thought people were free to reject God if they so wanted to? Isn't that why God gave them free will?
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[/quote]Br. Adam and Socrates have done a fine job answering this but I will offer a different slant.

Why does man have any inherent rights at all? What sets him apart from the rest of the world in ensuring that man has a right to X or to Y? Man has rights which sets him apart from the rest of creation because man, like angels, is an immortal being. A rabbit or a toad is not ordered to a supernatural end as man is. They are ordered to a purely natural and temporal end whereas man will live on. Man is ordered towards God and union with God. It is thus that man has a right to X or Y insofar as X or Y is a help or aid towards man's end. What does not serve as a help in attaining man's end (i.e.: the beatific vision) he has no right whatsoever to seek or pursue. Here this would be sin. Sin is not a help or an aid to man's natural end, and hence he has no right to it.

Simply put: Man has a right to all that will help him to reach the end for which he is ordered. Sin by its very nature is not a help to this end and therefore he has no right to sin.

[Socrates]

From:
[url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=5455"]http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=5455[/url]

San Antonio archbishop says many Catholic politicians misunderstand their faith

San Antonio, TX, Nov. 21, 2005 (CNA) - During the I International Congress on Churches, the Lay State and Society, Archbishop Jose Gomez of San Antonio, Texas said most Catholic politicians in the United States have fallen into "a distorted understanding of what their faith is."

During a speech on Catholics and public life in the US, Archbishop Gomez noted that "today 70% of politicians who claim to be Catholic in Congress and the Senate support abortion, and that figure reaches almost 90% in traditional Catholic states such as Massachusetts or New York."

Many Catholic politicians, inspired by the interpretation of some influential theologians, consider all the teachings of the Church to be on equal footing. "They respect ‘a large part’ of that doctrine, especially in social matters, but they disagree on issues such as abortion, euthanasia and homosexual unions. According to them, they adhere to a ‘large part’ and say they are adhering to it all."

This understanding, the archbishop pointed out, has led to "curious anomalies, such as a ‘Catholicity’ survey carried out by one Catholic senator among his colleagues in 2003 which showed that this senator and another were the ‘most Catholic’ of the Senate, despite having voting voted 100 out 100 times in support of abortion, euthanasia, homosexual unions and experimentation with embryonic stem cells."

An example of such a situation was the presidential candidacy of John Kerry. Kerry claimed to be Catholic yet openly supported abortion.

As a result, many Catholics looked to their bishops and priests for guidance. "It was necessary for the bishops of the United States to take some time to reflect on this matter, which was what took place in Denver, Colorado, last year, with the support of a letter sent by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith," said Archbishop Gomez.

"The Church teaches that abortion is a grave sin and that not all moral issues have the same weight as the interruption of the life of the unborn or euthanasia," the archbishop continued. "If some candidate campaigns for and supports laws that allow abortion and euthanasia, his pastor should meet with him, instruct him in the teachings of the Church and inform him that he should not present himself for Communion until he puts an end to the state of sin in which he finds himself," Archbishop Gomez said in conclusion.

[Socrates]

From: [url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=5283"]http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=5283[/url]

Legal protection of all innocent human life, promotion of the dignity of each human person must be ultimate political goal for Catholics, says new document on political action


Phoenix, Oct. 28, 2005 (CNA) - “The ultimate political goal for Catholics must be the achievement of public policies and laws that result in the legal protection of all innocent human life and that promote the dignity of each human person without exception and compromise”, states a new document setting guidelines for political action.

The document was published today by the Catholic Leaders Conference (CLC). It first reminded the importance of participation in the public debate, asserting a specific Catholic tradition in political action, and values this participation as a moral obligation.
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The first guideline the document stressed is the existence of a hierarchy between some issues that arise in political debate. Therefore the statements reasserts that “the first obligation of government is the protection of innocent human life from conception to natural death." Therefore setting life issues, such as – direct abortion, euthanasia, and the killing of unborn life for medical research, as non-negotiable

On other issues, the document insists on the importance of Catholic principles such as compassion, justice and charity that would serve as guidelines on issues like taxes, education, foreign policy and immigration reform. It acknowledges that diversity of opinion that could occur as a consequence.

In this respect it reminded the distinction made by the then Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, His Eminence Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, to the American Bishops when he stated: “There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

Finally it states the part the church hierarchy should play in the political realm.” Catholic priests and bishops first and foremost are shepherds of souls. The role of these shepherds is to instruct and to remind voters, candidates and public officials of the moral obligations and social principles that should guide their political action.”

“The political goal of Catholics into politics is to achieve public policies and laws that result in the legal protection of all innocent human life and that promote the dignity of each human person without exception and compromise” it concludes.

[Maria]

My 'other explain' was that, while we should work to make law reflect morality, we must work within the confines of the constitution of the country.

[Desert Walker]

Great thread Socrates. This is a discussion that too few Catholics are having.

My archibishop has decided to energetically garner support for a bill regarding immigration from among the people here in Atlanta. The bill's author's are McCain and Kennedy. Last night my pastor said that it is the only bill on this issue that is most in line with Catholic social teaching.

I think that's all great.

What I don't think is great is how little energy we see from bishops on abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality and other issues that aren't politically "safe." When is the entire USCCB going to demand the American Catholic laity to write to their senators and representatives about passing a ban on the most horrendous social injustice in human history: the murder of unborn human beings?

Just and fair immigration laws are something we can all get behind with smiles on our faces and feelings of righteousness welling up in our hearts.

But if the same thing can't be felt for an abortion ban, we are the dirtiest kind of hypocrites.

Supporting Catholic ideals of social justice my rear end...

[Era Might]

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Mar 20 2006, 12:21 PM']What I don't think is great is how little energy we see from bishops on abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality and other issues that aren't politically "safe."  When is the entire USCCB going to demand the American Catholic laity to write to their senators and representatives about passing a ban on the most horrendous social injustice in human history:  the murder of unborn human beings?
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The US Bishops have been ZEALOUSLY vocal against abortion, euthanasia, and "gay marriage". Our Massachusetts Bishops in particular have been very vocal. From the USCCB "Pastoral Plan for Pro-Life activities":

[quote]A comprehensive public policy program should include the following long- and short-term goals:

-passage of a constitutional amendment that will protect unborn children's right to life to the maximum degree possible, and pursuit of appropriate strategies to attain this goal

-federal and state laws and administrative policies that restrict the practice of abortion as much as possible and that prohibit government support of abortion, human cloning, and research that destroys human embryos

-continual challenging of the scope of and ultimate reversing of the decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court and other courts denying the right to life

-support for legislation that provides morally acceptable alternatives to abortion, including funding to expand education, health, nutrition, and other services for disadvantaged parents and their children

-support for federal and state legislation that promotes effective palliative care for those who are chronically ill or dying

-support for efforts to prevent legalization of euthanasia and assisted suicide by legislation or referendum

support for efforts to end the death penalty

A public policy program requires well-planned and coordinated advocacy by citizens at the national, state, and local levels. Such activity is not solely the responsibility of Catholics but instead requires widespread cooperation and collaboration on the part of groups large and small, religious and secular. As U.S. citizens and religious leaders, we see a critical moral imperative for public policy efforts to ensure the protection of human life. We urge our fellow citizens to see the justice of this cause and to work with us to achieve these objectives.

--United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, "Pastoral Plan for Pro-Life activities"

[url="http://www.usccb.org/prolife/pastoralplan.htm#iii"]http://www.usccb.org/prolife/pastoralplan.htm#iii[/url][/quote]

Edited March 20, 2006 by Era Might

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maria' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:34 PM']My 'other explain' was that, while we should work to make law reflect morality, we must work within the confines of the constitution of the country.
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It's not really clear what you are implying here, but the truth is that laws against abortion are not in violation of the U.S. Constitution. Roe v. Wade was a bad decision made by activist judges, which gave the federal government power to overrule any state laws restricting abortion.
There is no right to abortion in the Constitution.

Likewise, the Constitution does not guarantee "rights" to "gay marriage" or adoption. Laws on these matters belong to the States, as stated in the 10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Those who argue that laws against abortion or against giving special "rights" to homosexuals are contrary to the Constitution, argue falsely. They base their views on liberal activist (mis)"interpretation" of the Constitution, not on the actual law nor the intent of the framers.

As I have shown in several other threads, the "constitutional" argument for such immoral laws is a red herring.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Mar 20 2006, 10:21 AM']Great thread Socrates.  This is a discussion that too few Catholics are having.

My archibishop has decided to energetically garner support for a bill regarding immigration from among the people here in Atlanta.  The bill's author's are McCain and Kennedy.  Last night my pastor said that it is the only bill on this issue that is most in line with Catholic social teaching.

I think that's all great.

What I don't think is great is how little energy we see from bishops on abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality and other issues that aren't politically "safe."  When is the entire USCCB going to demand the American Catholic laity to write to their senators and representatives about passing a ban on the most horrendous social injustice in human history:  the murder of unborn human beings?

Just and fair immigration laws are something we can all get behind with smiles on our faces and feelings of righteousness welling up in our hearts.

But if the same thing can't be felt for an abortion ban, we are the dirtiest kind of hypocrites.

Supporting Catholic ideals of social justice my rear end...
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Thanks. I started this thread/poll because this is a theme which comes up repeatedly in debates with liberals on these boards. I decided to make a thread which would put this point in focus.

I find it sad that so many who consider themselves Catholic have bought into this radical-secularist idea that morality must be completely divorced from civil law. (At least with regards to life and morality issues. Many of these same people argue quite adamently for the moral necessity of a welfare state, etc.)

And it's interesting that none of the four who have voted that morality must not be reflected in law have defended their vote.