Why is this so difficult?

[sweetpea316]

Ok so, the two "sola" teachings of faith and scripture alone are my main concern. I understand the division between Catholic and Protestant on sola scriptura, and have learned to defend it quite well. However, the teaching of sola fide continues to be difficult for me...let me explain.

As I've been talking with different Lutherans about faith alone vs faith and works, I have gotten quite confused. I understand the Catholic teaching about it and fully believe it...that faith is necessary...none can "earn" their salvation, but that it is your faith working in love and good works.

But then I talk to them about faith alone. I take this to mean what it literally says...salvation only through one's faith. But then, they continue to say that yes, it is your faith alone, but if you have faith, you can't help but act and show it.

Is it just me, or are we basically saying the exact same thing?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='sweetpea316' date='Mar 17 2006, 01:54 PM']Ok so, the two "sola" teachings of faith and scripture alone are my main concern. I understand the division between Catholic and Protestant on sola scriptura, and have learned to defend it quite well. However, the teaching of sola fide continues to be difficult for me...let me explain.

As I've been talking with different Lutherans about faith alone vs faith and works, I have gotten quite confused. I understand the Catholic teaching about it and fully believe it...that faith is necessary...none can "earn" their salvation, but that it is your faith working in love and good works.

But then I talk to them about faith alone. I take this to mean what it literally says...salvation only through one's faith. But then, they continue to say that yes, it is your faith alone, but if you have faith, you can't help but act and show it.

Is it just me, or are we basically saying the exact same thing? 
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Not quite, though I am not always altogether sure that in reality there is a difference. Their "you can't help but act and show it." implies to varying degrees among protestants irresistable grace. It's not automatic. We have to make an effort. Yes, the grace is there for us to make the effort but that does not make it easy or automatic.

Luke
24: "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

1 Cor 14
12: So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church

1 Tim 4

10: For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Heb 4

11: Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience.

Acts 7
51: "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.




Hopefully that helps.

[sweetpea316]

I found this on an online Q&A site that my parents sent me... it basically is saying what I did before. What do yall think about it? Accurate or no?


"Catholics and Lutherans have a radically different view of the relationship of faith and works of mercy.

We agree that Christians must do such works of mercy. We disagree about why we should do them.

The Catholic church believes that works are a part of saving faith and that faith is made saving by the works, the essence of faith is completed by works of love (fides charitate formata). In short, we are saved by faith and works.

Lutherans believe we must do works of mercy because God has commanded them. They are not optional. We also must do works of mercy because they flow naturally from the new nature of the Christian. Just as a healthy apple tree produces apples, a person attached to Christ will produce Christ-like works of mercy. These works of mercy, however, are not a part of saving faith, they are a result of saving faith. We do not do them to be forgiven, but because we have been forgiven. In short, we are saved by faith alone, not by faith and works."

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='sweetpea316' date='Mar 17 2006, 11:35 PM']Lutherans believe [b]we must do works of mercy because God has commanded them. They are not optional.[/b][right][snapback]914390[/snapback][/right]
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This is kind of contradictory. If they are commanded by God, and are not optional, then it is a sin to not do them. So, how can one say that they do not affect your salvation? This only illuminates the difference in views of sin. If you sin against God and turn from him, you will not be saved.

You may have read this passage many times, but today it really spoke to me and I finally understood it:

James 2:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

[sweetpea316]

The passage from James is what first baffled me and made me question my old sola fide beliefs. Both Paul and James have things to say about this in Scripture, and this is how it was explained to me...that I was taking it out of context. Yes or no?

"Paul and James are not saying different things. Paul was dealing with one kind of error while James was dealing with a different error.

The errorists Paul was dealing with were people who said that works of the law were needed to be added to faith in order to help earn God's favor. Paul countered this error by pointing out that salvation was by faith alone apart from deeds of the law (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:21-22). Paul also taught that saving faith is not dead but alive, showing thanks to God in deeds of love (Galatians 5:6).

James was dealing with errorists who said that if they had faith they didn't need to show love by a life of faith (James 2:14-17). James countered this error by teaching that faith is alive, showing itself to be so by deeds of love (James 2:18,26).

James and Paul both teach that salvation is by faith alone and also that faith is never alone but shows itself to be alive by deeds of love that express a believer's thanks to God for the free gift of salvation by faith in Jesus."


Here is another thing that was said...

"Faith does express itself in deeds of love. But these deeds of love are the result of faith, not a part of it. Galatians 5:6 can be translated "Faith works itself out in love." This is correct if it means that a living faith produces deeds of love.

Catholics, however, also sometimes refer to "faith which is worked by love." This means our deeds of love are a part of faith that make faith saving. This is wrong. The key question is whether the works through which faith expresses itself are a result of forgiveness (Bible, Lutherans) or one of the causes of forgiveness (Catholic)."

Sooo, basically, (forgive me, I'm still rather new to all of this)... Lutherans believe that we do good works because God has forgiven our sins and we are thankful... but Catholics believe that that you must do good works to gain salvation along with God's forgiveness? Is that right or am I way off?

Sorry, it's hard for me to wrap my brain around this when I've heard one thing the past 19 years and am now trying to understand another. Thanks for the help and patience!

[thessalonian]

Here is the problem with the Lutheran view. It does not deal with what happens if the works are not done. In Catholicism we are "saved" in the initial sense by faith alone. No works can save us before we are infused with the holy spirit. This happens first at baptism. Original sin is removed, as well as all personal sin. We become friends of God. Before this time our works were of no value and could not save us. A man could theoretically build a sky scrapper to the sky and fill it with people and feed them and would still go to hell. Now after we become Christians and are in grace, God's grace is poured in to our lives through the Eucharist and other sacraments. It helps us to root sin out of our lives and to do good. The good is not done automatically however. If we choose not to do it we will "wither on the vine". Do the works save us? Onl y in the sense that they are excercise which builds our spiritual muscle, just as the Eucharist is food that gives us the energy for our spiritual body to do the good that God wants us to do. Grace must not be wasted by us however. If we don't do the spiritual excercise as I said our souls become weak. We fall in to sin and will eventually fall away from the faith. Virtue counters vice and so it is not that the works "save" us in the protestant understanding of the word. But in doing them we allow the grace in us to work and continue in grace. Thus they do have a place in the equation of salvation.

But the question of faith vs. works is really the wrong one. We are saved by grace alone. If a man says he is saved by his faith in some sense he is making the same error as if one says he is saved by his works. The root of salvation is salvation by grace alone through faith. Grace brings us to faith and also brings us to do good works that God has for us. We cannot do them without such grace. They however are God working in us and through us (see eph 3:20-21) and so we do not claim them as our own.

Blessings

[sweetpea316]

Ok, this makes sense. We have salvation through grace alone and our faith which is strengthened and shown through our actions/works. Basically?

I guess the part that always tripped me up about the belief of salvation through faith and works is...it was always explained to me as meaning that yes, faith is necessary, but that Jesus' death on the cross apparently wasn't enough, so Catholics are earning their way to salvation by their own actions.

Any more thoughts? This is really helping...thanks guys.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='sweetpea316' date='Mar 18 2006, 02:03 PM']Ok, this makes sense. We have salvation through grace alone and our faith which is strengthened and shown through our actions/works. Basically? [/quote]

Yes your getting it.

[quote]I guess the part that always tripped me up about the belief of salvation through faith and works is...it was always explained to me as meaning that yes, faith is necessary, but that Jesus' death on the cross apparently wasn't enough, so Catholics are earning their way to salvation by their own actions.[/quote]

That's the rub that trips them up. Read Eph 3:20. Also we are told in scripture that God will produce in us 30, 60, or 100 fold. God works in us and through us. It is his grace that produces the grace that HE requires. See Roms 2:4-8 where he says we are to be judged by our DEEDS. Also the sheep and the goats in Matt 25. And Paul is told when he has his conversion that "Saul, Saul, why do you PERSECUTE MEEEEEEEE.". We are christ for the world. The light of the world. He is working in and through us. Protestants are so afraid of works but they are Christ to mankind. Paul says "not I be HE LIVES IN ME" in Galations. If you want exact quotes let me know for these verses and I will look them up later. We cannot boast of our works because without he WE CAN DO NOTHING. But with him WE CAN DO ALL THINGS. The point of all of this is it is HIS grace working IN US that HE earned on the CROSS. The grace was earned 2000 years ago, yes. But it has to be applied to our lives today. It is enough but it has to be applie.

One thing that is odd is the acknowledge sanctificaion by our works. This is actually a bit off. But it is problematic because we cannot santify ourselves in truth either. It is God's grace that sanctifies us. They have a hard time acknowledging this but when push comes to shove they do admit it. i.e. works have a role.
glad to help. :

[sweetpea316]

Praised be Jesus Christ!

Wow... things are starting to really click. I took a stroll over to the defense directory and checked out several articles...and wow...the Holy Spirit seems to be giving me epiphanies left and right!

One thing that really struck me is this... I just wanted to post it here and make sure the explanation is legit before I go around using it to explain things better.

"Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to "faith working by charity." In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fide formata or "faith formed by charity." The alternative to formed faith is fide informis or "faith unformed by charity." This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

Whether a Catholic will condemn the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term "faith" is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).

However, if the term "faith" is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.

A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word "formed" to clarify the nature of the faith in "sola fide" renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.

This leads me to why Catholics do not use the formula "faith alone." Given the different usages of the term "faith" in the Bible, the early Church had to decide which meaning would be treated as normative. Would it be the Galatians 5 sense or the Romans 14/James 2 sense? The Church opted for the latter for several reasons..."

Well? Yay or nay? Man, I am soo excited to be getting this finally. I'm falling in love with apologetics. :

Thanks again for the help yall! God bless!!

[phatcatholic]

i think this is good you will want to define some of your terms just so the reader completely understands what you are saying. you want to make sure that the protestant reader does not imbue your words with his own unique understanding instead of with what you intend to say with these words. so, answer the following questions:

1. "faith working in charity"
--what does this mean? give some examples of a formed faith

2. "if one has formed faith, one is justified"
--how? in what way? how does faith justify?
--what do you mean by "justification"?

you basically can't assume anything, especially when it comes to matters in which the meaning of words is so important. also, it will help to either include the actual verses that you are citing, or have the citation be a link to the verse. people are lazy and they tend not to look up things unless they have to. if you need help with these questions, just let me know. the directory is also very helpful, as you know read as many of the articles from that entry as you can.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Robbi]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 19 2006, 09:54 AM']i think this is good you will want to define some of your terms just so the reader completely understands what you are saying. pax christi,
phatcatholic
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Just to add here......also if someone can please explain difference between "sanctification" and "justification". I often see both these words used in explaining faith and works.....but have read that they are the same thing really.

Blessings,
Robert

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Robbi' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:36 PM']Just to add here......also if someone can please explain difference between "sanctification" and "justification".  I often see both these words used in explaining faith and works.....but have read that they are the same thing really.[/quote]

Justification=being made "right" in God's eyes.

Sanctification=being made holy or perfect.

One should indeed naturally lead or flow from the other.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 21 2006, 08:15 AM']Justification=being made "right" in God's eyes.

Sanctification=being made holy or perfect.

One should indeed naturally lead or flow from the other.
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Actually the Catholic Church does not view them separately but sanctification is a part of justification. Being made right and being made holy and perfect are intertwined in the Catholic view and if sanctification does not progress, we being a progression toward unrighteousness.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 21 2006, 08:23 AM']Actually the Catholic Church does not view them separately but sanctification is a part of justification.  Being made right and being made holy and perfect are [b]intertwined in the Catholic view[/b] and if sanctification does not progress, we being a progression toward unrighteousness.
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Yeah I know, that is why they should naturally lead and flow from one another. They are more like two sides of the same coin.

My point was to show that the justification side is more or less your relationship with God, while sanctification is your interrior state more or less.

[Brother Adam]

Good stuff. Right up the alley of my thesis which I will begin this summer.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 21 2006, 12:42 PM']Good stuff. Right up the alley of my thesis which I will begin this summer.
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I'd like to read that, Adam, as this subject has always been difficult on my understanding.

[Brother Adam]

it is, and it is very easy to fall into heresy. That is why in a 30 page thesis I will be able to barely define the problem and give the correct teaching.