Lo and Behold... a debate

[desertwoman]

Hey everybody, I"m finally starting a debate over ya, and I have lots of questions and I'm sure you do as well.

But as an aside, I have enjoyed the phatmass complitation album. Nice work production wise and lyrically. Of course I have some questions, but kudos to all who put a valiant effort in the project. Crusades and Gates of Hell are two of the stand out joints on the album in my honest opinion.

And thanks to all who prayed with me about our house sitiuation. We have till October to get caught up and then the payments will be back to normal. Keep us in your prayers as I do everyone here at Phatmass.

Well, I've lurked in the shadows and tried to stay out of debates one way or the other, but its now time for me to step up to the plate. It's time for me to ask some questions and provide some answers to questions yall may pose me. I pray that we all will gain a better understanding of each other cause I do want to see the body of Christ working together once more. I'm tired of the divison.

Of course I can read a ton of information, but I still will be lost on alot of things, so it is better to ask ye in err......person..... about the things I don't grasp. But before we begin, lets pray.

Father thank you for giving us another day and for giving us an opportinuity to talk with one another civily and with love. We both want to gain an understanding of each other and to learn more about your glory and mercy Father. Lets us come to the fullness of truth, and may truth shine through with each post we type. In your son's precious name....Amen.

Now ladies and gents..... My first question is the topic of ....... da da Marian devotion.

Is Mary important.... you bet she is!

Was the conception immaculate..... darn tootin!

Was Mary sinless..... don't know, she was human.

Should we pray to Mary...... this confuses me since Mary was human. She gave birth to our Lord and Savior, so shouldn't we pray to him?

I'll give more in a minute my dear friends.

Thank you for your time and effort. God bless you

[Cow of Shame]

Was there a question in there? Or are we supposed to just pick something out & start debating it?

[quote name='desertwoman']....kudos to all who put a valiant effort in the project.  Crusades and Gates of Hell are two of the stand out joints on the album in my honest opinion.[/quote]

I disagree. I think you tell a lie. You present the statement as if it is full of validity, but you insert a nonsensical "joint" in there. I think you're slyly mocking the artists....they were smokin' when they wrote the songs, and you're calling them out on it. Or is it a 'kudos' that they didn't simply fall over from being so high? Devilish little bit you wrote there.

I'll wait for your rebuttal.

[desertwoman]

Naw, kudos the candy bar.... Mmmmm that chewy crispy kudos bar... oh how I miss thee....


Kudos... the superior candy bar!!!



But on the real, Marian devotion... the whole nine yards. The kit and kabodle (whats a kabodle). You know my steez...... I hope you know my steez.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Just so you know, the Immaculate Conception means that Mary was sinless, so it would appear that you have two contradictory points.

[desertwoman]

Ah... so thats what that means. All this time I thought that it meant that she gave birth to Christ without having knowing any man.

So I do have a problem with the IC then.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 21 2006, 11:02 PM']Ah... so thats what that means.  All this time I thought that it meant that she gave birth to Christ without having knowing any man.

So I do have a problem with the IC then.
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The Immaculate Conception means that when she was conceived, she was preserved from all effects of original sin.

[HisChild]

I hate it when people say. .. like if I'm doing an assessment of a patient, and I ask if they're preggers and they say 'it'd be the Immaculate Conception' So, I say. ..really? You're without sin? How'd you manage that? And have to go on to explain that IC has nothing to do with Jesus, in the respect they're speaking.

[HisChild]

She was still able to sin in her life, but was born without Original Sin. I mean, if you think about it, without various articles to read, etc. . . . since nothing can enter heaven that is with stain of sin, it would hold that nothing which holds the New Covenant (The Ark of the New Covenant meaning Mary's womb) can be with any stain of sin either. I mean, how profane would that be, to have a sinful woman carrying in her womb, Jesus, the unborn babe? Pretty foul just to imagine it.

What exactly do you have a problem with, regarding the Immaculate Conception?

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Now ladies and gents..... My first question is the topic of ....... da da  Marian devotion.
[/quote]

Well To-shay? Is that how you spell it? Anyways, a worthy topic for discussion.

[quote]Is Mary important.... you bet she is![/quote]

See, this isn't so hard, half our work is done! :

[quote]Was the conception immaculate..... darn tootin![/quote]

If you believe in the Immaculate Conception, than the next one follows easily. If she was born without original sin, a pretty big concept, it would make sense that she never sinned.

[quote]Was Mary sinless.....  don't know, she was human. [/quote]

In a way, you've answered your own question here in your next line, though you may not realize it:

[quote]Should we pray to Mary...... this confuses me since Mary was human.  She gave birth to our Lord and Savior, so shouldn't we pray to him? [/quote]

She is human indeed. And as you said she was choosen as the vessel that would carry God-Incarnate in her womb. That's a pretty big deal. It only happened once after all The ark of the covenant, in a way a 'god-bearer' points to Mary, the "ark of the new covenant" as the one who bore Jesus Christ. She is the Mother of God, and as she declared, humbly, "blessed among women" and all generations will call her blessed, including you and me.

We ask Mary for her intercession to her Son Jesus. In the Old Testament, if you wanted to get to the king, do you know who you would ask? His wife right? Nope, but you are on the right track. You gotta go to the woman! You wanted to go to the Queen mother! That's where the power is! The Queen mother of the Old Testament is also a type, a shadow of what Mary becomes in the Kingdom of God that Jesus preached. He's the king, she's the Queen mother. Now, of course we can and should pray to Jesus, he's our Savior, God. But that shouldn't mean that we can just ignore the rest of His family. When we give honor to Jesus' mother, we honor Jesus.


[quote]Thank you for your time and effort.  God bless you [/quote]

God Bless you too!

[Era Might]

There's tons and tons of stuff that could be said about Mary, obviously, but I think an important point to understand about the Catholic perspective is that we see Mary as the "Ark of the New Covenant". This parallell is drawn out from both the Old and the New Testament.

Take a look at 2 Samuel 6. I'll just condense a few verses:

[quote]And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Ba'ale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the name of the Lord of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim.

And they carried the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abin'adab which was on the hill; and Uzzah and Ahi'o, the sons of Abin'adab, were driving the new cart with the ark of God; and Ahi'o went before the ark.

And David and all the house of Israel were making merry before the Lord with all their might, with songs and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals.

And when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled.

And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there because he put forth his hand to the ark; and he died there beside the ark of God.

And David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, "How can the ark of the LORD come to me?"

And the ark of the LORD remained in the house of O'bed-e'dom the Gittite three months; and the LORD blessed O'bed-e'dom and all his household.

So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the horn.

And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in its place, inside the tent which David had pitched for it; and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. [/quote]

Compare this with the account of Mary's visitation to Elizabeth in Luke 1:

[quote]In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechari'ah and greeted Elizabeth.

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." [/quote]

Notice how St. Luke explicitly draws from Samuel's narration of the Ark. "David arose and went" compared to "Mary arose and went". "How can the ark of the Lord come to me" compared to "How should the mother of my Lord come to me". John the Baptist "leapt" for joy at the coming of Mary in the same way the Israelites "made merry" before the Lord at the coming of the Ark. David also stayed for three months with the Ark, just as Mary stayed for three months with Elizabeth.

In the Old Testament, the ark held the tablets given to Moses (the Law), the manna from the desert, and the priestly rod of Aaron. In the New Testament, in her womb, Mary held the fulfillment of the law and the Prophets, the true bread which comes down from Heaven, and the High Priest. If the Israelites treated the old Ark with such reverence and solemnity, how much more so does the new Ark, Mary, deserve?

In psalm 131 or 132 (depending on the Bible version), we read:

[quote]Arise, O LORD, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might. [/quote]

In context, this is about the actual ark of the Old Covenant. But in typological fulfillment, it is seen as a prophesy of the Assumption. The Lord goes to his resting place, not alone, but with his Ark, his blessed mother. She shares in his glory as an image of the entire Church.

It's interesting that in the book of Revelation (chapter 11), just before the oft-cited vision of the "Woman clothed with the sun", St. John has a vision of the Ark:

[quote]Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. [/quote]

The Ark had been lost for quite some time. And immediately after seeing it, in chapter 12, St. John sees the vision of the woman. Again, this is an association of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. He goes on to tell of her universal motherhood:

[quote]Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. [/quote]

Like I said, this is only one aspect, but I think it's important, because it contextualizes the great honor and veneration that is due to Mary, and which has been accorded her since ancient times.

Regarding why we pray to Mary, I think this would best be answered in a more general sense of why we pray to anyone. Since the earliest days of the Church, inscriptions have been found asking departed Christians for prayers, and also in turn praying for them. This communion of the Saints is rooted in the mystical body spoken of by St. Paul. Although dead in the flesh, all the Saints are alive in Christ, and united to eachother. We can always petition one another for prayers and aid. We venerate the Saints in heaven because they have received their crown of glory. God has honored them, and so should we. In doing so, as St. Augustine said, we honor God, because by honoring those whom he has honored, we are recognizing his grace, which alone made that honor possible.

Hope that helps. If you're interested in reading something, check out "Mary and the Fathers of the Church" by Luigi Gambero. He documents the development of Marian thought among the Church Fathers.

Edited March 22, 2006 by Era Might

[Paphnutius]

[quote]but I think an important point to understand about the Catholic perspective is that we see Mary as the "Ark of the New Covenant". [/quote]

[HisChild]

considering that the last 4 posters have said exactly that. . . we Catholics love our "Ark". ark ark

[Guest JeffCR07]

With regards to "praying to Mary" by which I think you mean asking Mary to intercede for us, it is important to understand the Catholic view of the Church.

The Church is not simply the Church here on earth, let alone merely the priestly hierarchy. The Church on earth - composed of all believers - is called the Church Militant. But in addition to the Church Militant, Catholics believe also in the Church Triumphant. The Church Triumphant consists of all believers who have died and are in communion with God in Heaven, anticipating the Second Coming.

The Church Militant and the Church Triumphant are not two different Churches, but rather, they are both parts of the one Church. Now that means that Catholics do not see themselves as isolated from their brothers and sisters who have already died and been accepted into communion with Christ. Rather, we see ourselves as in perfect unity with them.

Just like the members of the Church Militant (like you and I) help each other to come to a more perfect love of God by praying for each other or doing acts of charity for one another, so too do the members of the Church Triumphant help us come to a more perfect love of God by praying for us. That prayer is what we call intercession. In fact, we believe that the prayers of the Saints for us are even more effective than the prayers that we offer up for one another, because the Saints, unlike us, are already in perfect communion with God and have no sin on their soul.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[desertwoman]

Hey, thanks for all of the responses. I'm going to read through all of them and get right back at ya because I"m at work.

I have to do the send item list at the library. While I'm up there, I"m going to pull some books to about our topic at hand.

I hope that everyone will have a wonderfull day at work or/and school.

Take care and God bless.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 21 2006, 10:11 PM']Well To-shay? Is that how you spell it? [right][snapback]917377[/snapback][/right]
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Touche'

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 22 2006, 07:24 AM']Hey, thanks for all of the responses.  I'm going to read through all of them and get right back at ya because I"m at work.

I have to do the send item list at the library.  While I'm up there, I"m going to pull some books to about our topic at hand.

I hope that everyone will have a wonderfull day at work or/and school.

Take care and God bless. 
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Check out Hail, Holy Queen if you look at any one book. It touches on the scriptural basis for all 5 major Marian doctrines.

[desertwoman]

Thanks!! I couldn't find that book, but I'll keep on looking. I havent forgotton about the responses. Work is jumping because of all of the students getting their papers ready. Whew.

But I did find a book called The Rosary by Gary Wills. Is this a cool place to start as well, or am I jumping the gun?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 22 2006, 12:29 PM']Thanks!!  I couldn't find that book, but I'll keep on looking.  I havent forgotton about the responses.  Work is jumping because of all of the students getting their papers ready. Whew.

But I did find a book called The Rosary by Gary Wills.  Is this a cool place to start as well, or am I jumping the gun?
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You can start reading where ever you feel comfortable to start reading. Just give us the chance to answer any questions you have.

[Era Might]

A word of caution: Gary Wills isn't exactly a reliable source. I'm not sure what the book is about. Just take it with a grain of salt. If you have any questions about what he has to say, ask them here, or consult the Catechism for an official answer.

Edited March 22, 2006 by Era Might

[Paphnutius]

I wish that I could remember tha author, but there is a book called "The Glory of the Rosary" or something along those lines. It is old, but awesome for it uses the paintings by Fra Angelico as a method on meditating on the mysteries.