Brother Adam Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 Well...let's see who's feathers I can ruffle this time, since I seem to be the darling at doing that. A friend of mine has gone the way of 5-point calvinism (we both used to be fundies). The basic gist of his argument that we recently had was, predestination is different than foreknowledge and therefore free will only exists as a concept, but there is no true free will. Out of this argument we can say: God only died for the elect; Man is once saved always saved by faith because he is predestined; we are only saved by works in the sense that the elect will do works, not out of free will, but out of the obligation that the faith of predestination brings. What are the main arguments that you would make against this? I'm working on a response right now, along with a couple of other issues, but I'd like to hear brief 'crux of the argument' responses to see if I'm lacking anything. Charge! Wait.
rkwright Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 How is he getting to the predestination conclusion? Thats the first place to start if his logic is valid and sound? If there is no free will, God must be held responsible for sin, and if responsible God is not all good, and actually sinful.
Mateo el Feo Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 My personal belief: I think the failure of the idea of Predestination lies in its impotence to affect reality. If God has positively willed some to be damned, how should we react? Is there some secret Calvinist database that reveals this knowledge? Probably not. So, in utter ignorance of this knowledge, I simply choose to love God. If, at times, I fall short of what He deserves, I repent and persevere. [quote name='rkwright' date='Mar 22 2006, 12:48 AM']How is he getting to the predestination conclusion? Thats the first place to start if his logic is valid and sound? If there is no free will, God must be held responsible for sin, and if responsible God is not all good, and actually sinful. [right][snapback]917569[/snapback][/right][/quote] I thought about something similar to this. As I understand it, evil can be defined as something that is contrary to the Will of God. If God positively wills evil, then He wills something...against His Will! As a consequence, either God is acting against Himself, or evil doesn't exist. Anyone who is smart, please feel free to correct me. I'm just an amateur.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 21 2006, 11:20 PM']A friend of mine has gone the way of 5-point calvinism (we both used to be fundies). [right][snapback]917393[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Point 5 became Calvinist?! Oh.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 21 2006, 11:20 PM']Well...let's see who's feathers I can ruffle this time, since I seem to be the darling at doing that. A friend of mine has gone the way of 5-point calvinism (we both used to be fundies). The basic gist of his argument that we recently had was, predestination is different than foreknowledge and therefore free will only exists as a concept, but there is no true free will. Out of this argument we can say: God only died for the elect; Man is once saved always saved by faith because he is predestined; we are only saved by works in the sense that the elect will do works, not out of free will, but out of the obligation that the faith of predestination brings. What are the main arguments that you would make against this? I'm working on a response right now, along with a couple of other issues, but I'd like to hear brief 'crux of the argument' responses to see if I'm lacking anything. Charge! Wait. [right][snapback]917393[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Without free will, there can be no love and we are slaves, not friends, of Christ. That in itself completely contradicts the whole of the Gospel, not to mention the particular words of friendship with Christ.
Sojourner Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 22 2006, 10:13 AM']Without free will, there can be no love and we are slaves, not friends, of Christ. That in itself completely contradicts the whole of the Gospel, not to mention the particular words of friendship with Christ. [right][snapback]917680[/snapback][/right] [/quote] My answer is basically along these lines as well. What lover wants a wife who doesn't freely want to be in relationship with him? Over and over in the Bible, God paints himself as a lover, wooing his people. If they have no choice but to love him, why all the wooing? Why does God long for us to be in relationship with him if he can just order that love with no chance of our refusing? This isn't to say that we have a totally unhampered ability to choose to love God -- our free choice is marred by the effects of sin. And, we are only capable of love because of God's love for us ... but nonetheless, there is choice involved in the matter. We aren't puppets.
cmotherofpirl Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 look at the prodigal son..if he was predestined, he would not have left in the first place.
rkwright Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 What I was getting at earlier with asking how they get to predestination is something like this. I assume they come to the conclusion that we are predestined based on God's foreknowledge. This person can't resolve the conflict between divine foreknowledge and free will. If you go down this road, and you take away human free will based on divine foreknowledge, that is to say that because God knows something it must by necessity be true, then you have also effectively nulled God's free will. If God knows that He is going to save the world, then it must by necessity be true, so God must not have free will to save the world either. What a terrible conclusion! Predestination if reached this way not only kills human free will, but also divine free will.
Mateo el Feo Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 Ludwig Ott [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895550091/qid=1143069294/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/002-9050685-1330433?s=books&v=glance&n=283155"](link)[/url] references the following verses ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1timothy/1timothy2.htm#v1"]1 Tim 2:1-4[/url]): [quote]First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, [b]who wills everyone to be saved [/b]and to come to knowledge of the truth.[/quote] Emphasis is mine.
Guest JeffCR07 Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 In addition, there are clearly divine supplications in scripture for man to change his way. This act would be superfluous under 5 point calvinism. More importantly, however, is the fact that his philosophical argument is in error, because while there is indeed a distinction between predestination and foreknowledge, he sets up a false dichotomy. He jumps from saying that because predestination and foreknowledge are different, then free will does not exist. However, this jump is irrational. Just because one is predestined to go to heaven or hell does not mean that this predestination operates within the causal order, but rather, it operates on the temporal order. Let's imagine that I will end up going to heaven. If that is the case, then I am, right now, predestined to go to heaven. But my being predestined doesn't have a [i]causal[/i] effect on whether or not I do good actions. Rather, my good actions have a causal effect on whether I go to heaven. So my predestination [i]follows from[/i] my actions. Thus, one can be predestined (in the order of time) while still remaining free (in the order of causality). Your Brother In Christ, Jeff
Norseman82 Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Tell him he is predestined to be a Catholic......
peach_cube Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 (edited) Icthus had issues with this a while back. If I remember correctly Apotheon had some excellent (as always) responses. Linkage[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=419d6de4a49965f29cc6fd320b817f17&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite=predestination"]Predestination[/url] Apo has some good stuff there. Edited March 23, 2006 by peach_cube
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