Miracles

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jpamericanka' date='Mar 23 2006, 06:42 PM']Brother Adam, just curious, do you think that all theories of evolution are wrong? I don’t believe in total evolution…aka…I don’t believe that the human race came from apes.  However, this doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in development and natural adaptation to the environment (e.g. the peppered moth) I do believe that the whole world is guided by God’s hand, and I think that’s what counts

Also, what is your definition of a miracle?
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I've talked about this many times before, but I'd still be happy to answer. I reject evolution as an explanation for the origin of life. To put it simply, I see no credible, reasonable evidence for macro-evolution. I have no qualms with the idea that if a human moves south to the equator his skin may darken over time, ie. micro-evolution. But micro-evolution really isn't evolution. I don't believe one species will ever turn into another species. Thus I believe in a special creation, and that all life did not come from a single celled organism.

A miracle is something that is a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of God, something that is not explanable through natural law. Such as the stigmata of St. Pio. There is no scientific explanation.

[jpamericanka]

thanks for the clarification. I must say, i'd have to agree with you. While the Church dosen't blatently go against the theory of micro evolution, It just seems to demote God's creation to be saying that the whole world came from a single cell. I don't know, just something about it.

Miracles though, i think they can't be completely explained by science, but that science can support them...e.g. the flood

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jpamericanka' date='Mar 23 2006, 07:19 PM']thanks for the clarification.  I must say, i'd have to agree with you.  While the Church dosen't blatently go against the theory of micro evolution, It just seems to demote God's creation to be saying that the whole world came from a single cell.  I don't know, just something about it.

Miracles though, i think they can't be completely explained by science, but that science can support them...e.g. the flood
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Those of us who think like we do are very few and far between on phatmass. I'm attacked often for this view by many members of phatmass, including moderators, so you may not want to say that too loud.

[Snarf]

If you're tired of being victimized for holding antiquated views, I hear the Southern Baptists are always taking converts. I think you'd fit right in.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Mar 23 2006, 07:54 PM']If you're tired of being victimized for holding antiquated views, I hear the Southern Baptists are always taking converts.  I think you'd fit right in.
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Since you are incapable of separating the person from the issue, you lose all credibility, and with it, whatever position you hold. I don't know what kind of insecurities you suffer from that you feel the need to attack others that believe differently than yourself, but hopefully with time, prayer, and possibly counseling, you will be able to grow out of it.

[Snarf]

That's wishful thinking if I ever heard it. You don't people being blunt, so you assume that allows you to ignore them. Riiiiiiight. No wonder you're afraid of science.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Mar 23 2006, 09:04 PM']That's wishful thinking if I ever heard it.  You don't people being blunt, so you assume that allows you to ignore them.  Riiiiiiight.  No wonder you're afraid of science.
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This has gotten way past old and boring. You've offered nothing of any value, and can at this point be considered little more than a troll. You've been given every oppertunity to offer meaningful, apologetic insight, but have taken little care to do so, and certianly haven't bothered to stop to hear what anyone is saying. You've ignored a great deal of what has been posted, and only seem satisfied if you are attacking someone. I've had more meaningful dialogue with my little brother helping him with his 'mold' science project than what you have bothered to offer. It is wishful thinking if you believe anything you have said so far has any merit. There are several people on these threads that have offered dialogue of substance, who believe in evolution, and you could certianly take lessons from them (peach_cube would be an example). I really don't have any more time for your childish responses. When you decide to grow up, please come back.

[rkwright]

I'll post this over here, but I posted it in the flood thread also....

Is there an a priori proof for miracles?

[Snarf]

Adam, you're internalizing this way too much and you seem to take it way too seriously. That is not my problem. If I haven't provided substance, it's because you've not given me anything to respond to. if I wanted to be vicious or overly derisive, I think you'd know. The truth remains that there is no good reason for a Catholic to believe in Creationism when the scientific evidence is so overwhelmingly in favor of evolution and the Church allows to side with it.

What you're doing is avoiding dialogue completely by feigning offense at the fact that I'm not going to baby your ideas as if they hold water. If you think you can provide some proof or evidence that opposes evolution, please present it. So far, all you've done is just whine.

[cmotherofpirl]

Adam please define your version of creationism

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Mar 23 2006, 10:07 PM']The truth remains that there is no good reason for a Catholic to believe in Creationism when the scientific evidence is so overwhelmingly in favor of evolution and the [b]Church allows to side with it[/b].[/quote]Just a point of interest. Does the Church not also allow one to side with Creationism?

[Snarf]

This is true. But common sense more or less forbids it.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I'll take you up bro. adam.

I personally believe in evolution and, with Cardinal Schonborn, I argue that we can still see God in all of Creation without casting aside evolution.

Also, all evidence supports the idea that different languages developed naturally and gradually over time and geographical location.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Mar 23 2006, 10:50 PM']This is true.  But common sense more or less forbids it.
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So the Church validates a belief that is against common sense (note that common sense may be wrong, as in it was "common sense" at one point to think that witches weighed as much as ducks )? I am sorry I am just interested as to why one would say that it would be nonsensical to believe in something that Holy Mother Church has proclaimed as valid.

[Snarf]

It would be beyond the scope of the Church to say whether Creationism or evolution is correct, and I would never say that it falls upon her to take an official side. However, the Church says that which side you choose is irrelevant to salvation. That being said, any theological backing to Creationism is rendered null because it's obsolete. What then is necessary is to investigate origins from other venues, and the only appropriate one is science. Science has mountains of evidence in favor of evolution, and absolutely nothing to side with Creationism. "Creation Science" is a myth because it relies on evidence extraneous to empircal observation. So, in short, there is no logically sound reason to be a Creationist, whether theological or scientific.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Mar 23 2006, 11:40 PM']It would be beyond the scope of the Church to say whether Creationism or evolution is correct, and I would never say that it falls upon her to take an official side.  [/quote]I think you underestimate some forms of evolution (or Creationism as well) and just what they imply. Some theories cross into matters of faith, and that is perfectly within the scope of the Church to speak on. If you maintain a theory of evolution that denies certain tenents of the deposit of faith then the Church has the authority to render that belief as incorrect. So yes it is within the scope of the Church to speak on matters of evolution insofar as they pretain to the deposit of faith. Is it within the bounds to say that evolution is scientifically impossible? Not exactly, but as I stated, the Church is perfectly within Her bounds to strike down theories that deny revealed Truth from Scripture or Tradition.

[quote] However, the Church says that which side you choose is irrelevant to salvation. That being said, any theological backing to Creationism is rendered null because it's obsolete. [/quote]You are using a minimalistic approach to theology and this should never be done. Simply because it does not pertain to matters of salvation does not mean that the search for theological truth should just be abandoned in favor of scientific hypotheses that change with the ebb and flow of the tide.

My point was to show that the Church has also accepted Creationism and to speak with more authority than the Church on this matter (such as saying that it is illogical) would be imprudent at best. In short, to say that one should be an evolutionist because the Church allows it gets you nowhere for the Church also allows the other position.

Edited March 24, 2006 by Paphnutius

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Mar 24 2006, 12:50 AM']This is true.  But common sense more or less forbids it.
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common sense! common sense tells us that people don't come back from the dead.

Christianity defies common sense in a lot of ways.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Mar 24 2006, 12:13 AM']Christianity defies common sense in a lot of ways.
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As long as we understand common sense as time conditioned and distinct from objective truth.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 24 2006, 02:18 AM']



As long as we understand common sense as time conditioned and distinct from objective truth.
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way to take common sense and make it complicated.

[rkwright]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Mar 24 2006, 01:19 AM']way to take common sense and make it complicated.
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j\k I love pap