foundsheep Posted December 21, 2003 Author Posted December 21, 2003 I edited that John sorry, I was using this: Acts26:13 13 At midday, along the way, O king, I saw a light from the sky, brighter than the sun, shining around me and my traveling companions. 14 We all fell to the ground and I heard a voice saying to me in Hebrew, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goad.' 3 15 And I said, 'Who are you, sir?' And the Lord replied, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 Get up now, and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness of what you have seen (of me) and what you will be shown.
ICTHUS Posted December 21, 2003 Posted December 21, 2003 Notice, I said "fell into apostasy". A Reformed Protestant would hold that the Roman Church did not start to get into hot water with her doctrine until about a century or two before the Reformation, and that that apostasy culminated during the time of the Reformation. A Reformed Protestant would also claim that the Church needed to be reformed from the outside, for, all of the people attempting to bring the Church back to the Apostolic doctrines of the true Gospel, had been excommunicated.
foundsheep Posted December 21, 2003 Author Posted December 21, 2003 That sounds like excuses. Reformation no matter how you put it, means people gave up on the church and started a new one. If they where truly just reformed those churches would have not discontinued church practices and beliefs,just change authority. But then again who where they to change authority.
cmotherofpirl Posted December 21, 2003 Posted December 21, 2003 2Thess2:3, was a prophecy on the Reformation. And look, it did happen. But the Church still stands until today! Anyway, the Reformation can be seen that we lost the battle.. but as Christ promised us, we will win the war! [Matt16:18] Although we see that it is bad that people broke off from the Church BUT isn't it worse when Christ suffered and died? Where sin abounds, grace abounds ^_^ Peace No it wasn't, it simply pointed out the idiots are coming. Every generation has its quota. To say it points to the deformation is to twist SCripture to please yourself.
PedroX Posted December 21, 2003 Posted December 21, 2003 I would like to suggest that there have been many "reform" movements within the history of the Church. Most religious orders were formed due to "reform" movements. The Council of Trent could be viewed in some ways as a "reform". To say that reform means the gates of Hell have prevailed is not neccessarily true. To say the the formation of the Protestant heresy was neccessary or good, is also not neccessarily true. Discuss amongst yourselves. peace...
bookofjohn Posted December 21, 2003 Posted December 21, 2003 (edited) Hi cmotherofpirl I did not twist the Scriptures because my explanation of 2Thess2:3 is not a heresy nor does it contradict the Church's teaching. ^_^ Of course, I did not agree that the heresy as the result of the Protestant reformation was necessary. Anyway, if one is to say that accepting Reformation contradicts Matt16:18, that would be heresy because that implies that God made a mistake. But we know God ALWAYS right. So Reformation has nothing to do with Matt16:18, rather it ties more closely to 2Thess2:3. :lol: Edited December 21, 2003 by bookofjohn
ICTHUS Posted December 21, 2003 Posted December 21, 2003 That sounds like excuses. Reformation no matter how you put it, means people gave up on the church and started a new one. If they where truly just reformed those churches would have not discontinued church practices and beliefs,just change authority. But then again who where they to change authority. But, what if the Church practises and beliefs were apostate? Remember, they were protesting the Roman Church because they felt she was thoroughly apostate, in every way, including doctrine and practise.
foundsheep Posted December 21, 2003 Author Posted December 21, 2003 Heres what I have for a definition of apostate or apostasy: 1 : renunciation of a religious faith 2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : So by saying the Church did this you are still saying the gates of hell have prevailed, or better yet saying I givin up. So I would say the people that did the so called "reformation" fell into apostate. To Give up on Christ Church is to give up Christ Body and Blood.
geetarplayer Posted December 22, 2003 Posted December 22, 2003 A little off subject, but... From what I can tell from bookofjohn's posts and his great usage of smileys, I assume you are a very pleasant person who is easily liked! Welcome to phatmass! -Mark
jasJis Posted December 22, 2003 Posted December 22, 2003 Interesting topic. My opinion is that if the Protestant Reformation hadn't had happened, then phatmass.com and lifeteen.com would have happened decades ago. The result of the Protestant Reformation was that millions of good Chrisitians took their God give Graces elsewhere and did not use them to serve God's Church. It defeats logic to think that God caused a crippling to effect a healing. God always leads His Church to constant Renewal because it's a living Church. Reformation of behaviors of some Church behaviours were needed. But they were aberations, not symptoms of a fundamental illness. People who leave the Church do so because they want their will be done and really aren't trusting that God's will will be accomplished in His good time.
bookofjohn Posted December 22, 2003 Posted December 22, 2003 Hi Mark a.k.a. geetarplayer! Haha. Thank you for that warm welcome and the compliment! ^_^ and also to you jasJis.. Hi! It may be true that phatmass.com and lifeteen.com might have started decades ago. But we have to keep in mind that, the Reformation is the key movement that triggered Scripture reading among the Protestants(formerly Catholics ). Because the Protestants believe that everyone is called to be a priest(which at that time for the Catholic Church meant ordained priests, but for Protestants it meant people that evangelize) whether it is a man or a woman. Because of that belief and their evangelism driven attitude they began to read the Scriptures more and more, daily.. and have begun to explore different ways to worship & praise, evangelise and ministering God's people! As we can see now, after centuries passed, the experimentation the Protestants did has become fruitful: Worship&Priase: Hillsong, HosannaMusic!, Maranatha.. and Evangelism: Campus Crusade(Bill Bright).. just to name a few In my humble opinion, it is their fruits that inspired us to do more for the true Church(Catholic Church); and thus sprout Lifeteen(since 1985), Catholic Charismatic Renewal, Phatmass.com, etc.. I personally believe that we would not have so many Christians around the world, if not for the evangelical Protestants :D Because from what I observe, most cradle Catholics are ignorant of the Scriptures.. as St. Jerome would put it, "Ignorance of Scriptures is Ignorance of Christ", thus how can a Catholic that does not know Christ effectively evangelise or rather.. have the zeal to evangelise? It is true that God leads his Church to a constant renewal and I believe that He does it through people, a very good example: the Protestants I praise and thank the Lord for the renewal in His Church and also bringing back His people(e.g. Scott Hahn; Protestant pastor turned Catholic) to His true Church! Amen! :D
CatholicAndFanatical Posted December 22, 2003 Posted December 22, 2003 I dunno bookofjohn, I kinda get what you are saying. but you do realize that all the reformers ended up doing was take people AWAY from Christs Church right? Sure, Scott Hahn came back home, I came back home after being a pentecostal most my life. But what about those good people that havent came home because of what the pastors are teaching about the Catholic Church? There's a reason why protestantism was formed, to go against the Catholic Church. I want to see where your coming from brother I really do. I just cant grasp it. God can renew His Church without creating a false one that leads people away with only a hope of coming back. But like I said, im really trying to see where your coming from. I just end up back at the same place. It takes people away from the One True Church and fills them with falsehoods about the One True Church. Not Good. God bless ya man, CatholicAndFanatical
phatcatholic Posted December 22, 2003 Posted December 22, 2003 bookofjohn, i need to comment on a few things u said in ur last post.... But we have to keep in mind that, the Reformation is the key movement that triggered Scripture reading among the Protestants(formerly Catholics ). the reformation did not heighten the belief of the christian in the importance of scripture, it made him believe exclusively in scripture and turn his back on the Church! of course protestants began reading the bible more, this was all they believed in!! sorry bro, i don't see this as a favor. Because of that belief and their evangelism driven attitude they began to read the Scriptures more and more, daily.. and have begun to explore different ways to worship & praise, evangelise and ministering God's people! i will agree that new forms of evangelization is a worthwhile by-product of reading Scripture. but u seem to be saying here that their "evangelism-driven attitude" is what made protestants turn to scripture more, and this just simply is not the case. the original impetus was a turning away from Church authority and a relying solely and exclusively on the bible. in my opinion, these are not praiseworthy intentions. secondly, do u not see that these "different ways to worship & praise, evangelise and ministering God's people" are drawing people away from Christ's Church!?!? as a catholic, our evangelization efforts would not be nearly the struggle if it was just the catholic christian seaking out the non-christian. but instead, we have the catholic christian seeking out the non-christian, and the baptist christian, and the methodist christian, and the pentecostal christian, and the lutheran christian, and the calvinist christian, and on and on and on ad nauseum. In my humble opinion, it is their fruits that inspired us to do more for the true Church(Catholic Church); and thus sprout Lifeteen(since 1985), Catholic Charismatic Renewal, Phatmass.com, etc.. i do realize that are catholic lives are much greater w/ these ministries, but i also ponder this question: would these even be necessary were it not for the reformation? i wonder if this interest in upbeat, "moving" church music and more "hip" ministries would even be necessary if we did not have to compete w/ protestants. if these things did end up being necessary, i would much rather it be b/c the Church is a living, organic body and not b/c we are trying to capitalize on protestant "fruits" and give catholic liturgy and youth ministries a "protestant" twist. I personally believe that we would not have so many Christians around the world, if not for the evangelical Protestants Because from what I observe, most cradle Catholics are ignorant of the Scriptures.. as St. Jerome would put it, "Ignorance of Scriptures is Ignorance of Christ", thus how can a Catholic that does not know Christ effectively evangelise or rather.. have the zeal to evangelise? i'm sorry, but this statement is almost offensive to me. for one, it irks me when catholics and non-catholics alike characterize catholicism through the example of the un-orthodox and the non-convicted. now, i do realize that u inserted the adjective "cradle" so as to not speak of all catholics. so, depending on ur definition of a "cradle catholic" i can agree w/ this statment. but, u seem to suggest that we have protestants to thank for our own ability to "know Christ effectively" or to "evanglize." that is where i object. need i explain why? (for the sake of brevity i will not, unless you ask me to) in closing, i must reiterate what CAF said: i just can't see your argument bro. you are giving protestants and the reformation much morecredit then it deserves, and not enough credit where credit is due. i hope u don't think i'm trying to blast you here. its just that this thread seems to strike a particular nerve w/in me. i hope you understand. pax christi, phatcatholic
bookofjohn Posted December 22, 2003 Posted December 22, 2003 hey phatcatholic :D Perhaps I am really turning Protestant? haha. That was a joke, really. ^_^ Seriously, my point throughout this whole topic was just to let all of you see that the Reformation(no doubt, a movement against the Catholic Church) has actually brought good too! Just like an apple tree with the fruits all rotten and decayed is bad for health but, it will eventually fall onto the ground and nourish the tree, to bear better fruits, for the people! If you ask me whether I support the Reformation.. I would say NO. and also if you ask me, is the Reformation good? I would also say NO. But I would say that God writes straight with crooked lines. ^_^ And I am really not giving the Protestant credit for the revival of our Church, rather I am giving God the Almighty credit because He took what was bad and made it good for His Church. Don't worry no hard feelings here ^_^ :peace: Peace
phatcatholic Posted December 22, 2003 Posted December 22, 2003 hey phatcatholic :D Perhaps I am really turning Protestant? haha. That was a joke, really. ^_^ Seriously, my point throughout this whole topic was just to let all of you see that the Reformation(no doubt, a movement against the Catholic Church) has actually brought good too! Just like an apple tree with the fruits all rotten and decayed is bad for health but, it will eventually fall onto the ground and nourish the tree, to bear better fruits, for the people! If you ask me whether I support the Reformation.. I would say NO. and also if you ask me, is the Reformation good? I would also say NO. But I would say that God writes straight with crooked lines. ^_^ And I am really not giving the Protestant credit for the revival of our Church, rather I am giving God the Almighty credit because He took what was bad and made it good for His Church. Don't worry no hard feelings here ^_^ :peace: Peace okay, i think i can agree w/ that. ;)
geetarplayer Posted December 22, 2003 Posted December 22, 2003 My opinion is that if the Protestant Reformation hadn't had happened, then phatmass.com and lifeteen.com would have happened decades ago. Actually, the internet was invented in like the mid-90's, so the websites wouldn't have been around any earlier than that! But probably the actual organizations would have been. Although, PhatMass is rap and hip-hop, right? So PhatMass can't have started any earlier than the 80's, when the first rap and hip-hop came out. :teach: -Mark
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