Downloading music

[prose]

I have a something to throw out there for debate...

Is downloading music a sin in the States, but not in Canada?

Why such a foolish question (you may ask)....

Well, 2 reasons:

1. Downloading and music sharing is legal in Canada (yeah, well so is abortion, that doesn't make it right- you may say)....

AND

2. We pay a percentage on all blank CDs, cassettes, VHS thingys, and DVD burning stuff that is supposed to go support the entertainment industry.

So, technically, Canadians aren't getting it for "free" we are paying a different way.

Soes this make file sharing unsinful here?

(Also, like I said before 2 separate and conservative priests told me in confession that it wasn't a sin)

[philothea]

When you say "is legal" are there [i]any[/i] restrictions? Can I move to Canada, copy all my CDs and give them all away to my friends? Copyright law is pretty much an international agreement... I don't think things would be released in Canada at all if there was no copyright protection whatsoever.

[Amator Veritatis]

The primary sin in illegally obtaining music is not a result of civil law but of moral law. Such an act is sinful insofar as it is a violation of the seventh commandment. To steal the work of another, especially work which is the means of such a person's livelihood, is undoubtedly sinful, regardless of the civil law. Besides, a person could hypothetically download an infinite number of songs without ever copying them onto a CD. He might be content in listening to them on his computer at home. Such a person would never pay anything to the industry producing the material. Even if he did pay a small percentage, such an act would be unjust insofar as the payment is not necessarily given to the creator of the music he has stolen, and even if he gave a small amount, such an amount would not necessarily be a fair wage for the music produced. Of course, the prices charged for music are almost universally too high, and the entertainment industry is an immoral capitalist enterprise. Those things being true, it does not absolve the criminals of guilt who unlawfully and immorally steal their music.

[philothea]

I just want to know what the law actually is. I know that there are taxes on Canadian goods on the assumption that [i]broadcast[/i] material will be copied -- like TV shows and radio broadcasts. In that case, artists are (kind of blanketly) compensated.

I don't know if the Canadian tax covers internet copied goods or not. Is there a tax on hard drives and iPods too? I don't think most people save the stuff they download to CD.

[philothea]

Well -- I did my own research. In Canada it's legal to dowload music, but illegal to upload it. So, "music sharing" isn't exactly legal.

Uhhhh. Interesting law. So, bascially, it's legal to take stolen goods.

Weird.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Amator Veritatis' date='Mar 28 2006, 03:59 PM']The primary sin in [b]illegally[/b] obtaining music is not a result of civil law but of moral law. Such an act is sinful insofar as it is a violation of the seventh commandment. To steal the work of another, especially work which is the means of such a person's livelihood, is undoubtedly sinful, regardless of the civil law. Besides, a person could hypothetically download an infinite number of songs without ever copying them onto a CD. He might be content in listening to them on his computer at home. Such a person would never pay anything to the industry producing the material. Even if he did pay a small percentage, such an act would be unjust insofar as the payment is not necessarily given to the creator of the music he has stolen, and even if he gave a small amount, such an amount would not necessarily be a fair wage for the music produced. Of course, the prices charged for music are almost universally too high, and the entertainment industry is an immoral capitalist enterprise. Those things being true, it does not absolve the criminals of guilt who unlawfully and immorally steal their music.
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Yes, but in this case, it is not illegal.

[Sirklawd]

i have a similar question, and this is for the USA.

there is a book that comes in hardcover than can be shipped to you or in digital-download pdf format. the hardcover is 35$, pdf 25$.

i purchased the hardcover of the book., but now I also what a digital version of the book. Is it wrong of me to download the pdf version (from a 3rd part site)? I figure it would be the same as if I scanned all the pages of the book I have. I mean.. I already own the book, can you steal something you already own?


sorry, not trying to hijack

[philothea]

[quote name='Sirklawd' date='Mar 29 2006, 12:52 PM']i have a similar question, and this is for the USA.

there is a book that comes in hardcover than can be shipped to you or in digital-download pdf format. the hardcover is 35$, pdf 25$.

i purchased the hardcover of the book., but now I also what a digital version of the book. Is it wrong of me to download the pdf version (from a 3rd part site)? I figure it would be the same as if I scanned all the pages of the book I have. I mean.. I already own the book, can you steal something you already own?
sorry, not trying to hijack
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I'm sure prose will be generous and share her topic.

(1) Dang, that's an expensive book
(2) I don't know how you're getting these verions, but is it possible the publisher, distributor, or author would give you a copy of the pdf if you asked?
(3) I'd have no problem with you getting an electronic version, but copyright laws are so screwed up I don't have any idea what rights you legally have, and I don't know if you could get a real answer, since everyone is crazy and biased on this topic.

[prose]

I would certainly say not. If I owned a CD, I would have no problem converting it to mp3 so I could listen to it in my player.

I think it would be the same thing. You can't steal what you own.

[CatholicCid]

What would the thought be on songs you can listen to online... Would it be wrong to save them on your comp or should you always bookmark the page, then go to it if you wish to listen to the song.
Such as, say the songs on the Phatmass Radio had a Save File As option... Could you just have them on your comp or should you go to the Phatmass Radio each and everytime

[RascalJones]

OK. Since it's on topic. I have a bunch of cassettes from my teenage years (I'm a double-teenager now). At one point, I used a file-sharing service to download many of the songs on those cassettes (as I don't really have a way to play them anymore). I also downloaded a bunch of stuff I "didn't" own. So, I've confessed my sin, and I've deleted most of the stuff I've downloaded, but I haven't deleted the songs that I already have on cassette. I "could" copy my cassettes to mp3, but it's VERY time-consuming. Is it wrong of me to keep the ones that I already have? I mean, at one point, I DID spend the money on it. I'm not trying to rationalize, just trying to figure out if it's OK or not to have the files.

[RascalJones]

[quote name='CatholicCid' date='Mar 29 2006, 10:39 PM']What would the thought be on songs you can listen to online... Would it be wrong to save them on your comp or should you always bookmark the page, then go to it if you wish to listen to the song.
Such as, say the songs on the Phatmass Radio had a Save File As option... Could you just have them on your comp or should you go to the Phatmass Radio each and everytime
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I think if the songs are offered for free with a downloadable file, you're fine. The person putting the file(s) out there did it knowing that the file could be downloaded.

Just don't try to make copies and sell it.

[bx_racer]

[quote name='Amator Veritatis' date='Mar 28 2006, 12:59 PM']The primary sin in illegally obtaining music is not a result of civil law but of moral law. Such an act is sinful insofar as it is a violation of the seventh commandment. To steal the work of another, especially work which is the means of such a person's livelihood, is undoubtedly sinful, regardless of the civil law. Besides, a person could hypothetically download an infinite number of songs without ever copying them onto a CD. He might be content in listening to them on his computer at home. Such a person would never pay anything to the industry producing the material. Even if he did pay a small percentage, such an act would be unjust insofar as the payment is not necessarily given to the creator of the music he has stolen, and even if he gave a small amount, such an amount would not necessarily be a fair wage for the music produced. Of course, the prices charged for music are almost universally too high, and the entertainment industry is an immoral capitalist enterprise. Those things being true, it does not absolve the criminals of guilt who unlawfully and immorally steal their music.
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well, actually, i read somewhere that musicians dont really get much for their cds. its the companies. the musicians get more from other merch and tours.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='bx_racer' date='Apr 8 2006, 01:25 PM']well, actually, i read somewhere that musicians dont really get much for their cds. its the companies. the musicians get more from other merch and tours.
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Yes, something new to think about.

To add to what bx_racer said, artists don't make much from selling CDs at all.

Think about it. You go to your local entertainment store, lets say, Best Buy. On average, at any entertainment store, a CD would probably cost anwhere from 14-20 bucks, even new releases, which usually cost closer to 20ish. First of all, the store that carries the cd makes money.

Then the delivery company that trucked it there.
Then the company that made the case.
Then the company that made the disc.
The producers.
The technicians.
Basically all the people who get credited on the CD book and more.

In most cases, the artist really makes [i]maybe[/i] about 50 cents to a buck for every CD that they sell. For many mainstream artists, who usually go platinum to double platinum within the first few months of the CD's release, that would probably give them at least 1- maybe a few million. If you've ever seen how mainstream artists live, you'd know that most of them spend that much in a few days, maybe EVEN a day with all of the services that they pay for.



A PERCENTAGE of a week's worth of living about, from just one CD release. They only release one CD about every 2 or 3 years.

How the carp do they live?

Well, as the person above said, most of them make money from product endorsement, tv appearances, concerts, and other promos.

ERGO

Making CDs and selling them CAN'T be crucial to their livelihood.

The fact that they actually do make money from their CDs and that they can actually say that they go platinum and double platinum within the first few months, even, of their CD's release, is a sign that copying music hasn't gone as far as to threaten their livelihood. Plus, even after a few years of it's release, they never leave the stores completely. Stores keep them stocked because they know that people buy them, otherwise, they wouldn't keep them stocked. I, like others, I'm sure, have walked into a store and bought a CD YEARS after it's release, and they still make money from that.

The Anti-Piracy Act says that nothing of their music can be copied and distributed (meaning sold or even given to a friend) without permission of the holder of the rights of their product. Therefore, copying CDs (of course, copying them for your own personal use is absolutely legal, since you're not duplicating something and then giving it away when that duplcation could have been sold) and then giving them away is sinful.

HOWEVER, given the facts above, is it GRAVELY sinful, that, people, is the question.

Edited April 8, 2006 by iheartjp2

[bx_racer]

hmm....well it was until relatively recently that u couldnt give a copy to a friend wasn't it?

[philothea]

[quote name='bx_racer' date='Apr 12 2006, 05:53 PM']hmm....well it was until relatively recently that u couldnt give a copy to a friend wasn't it?
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Well, if by relatively recently you mean the last two hundred years or so... :

Copyright is a modern development, but it's still a lot older than any of us. Until recently, no one could make [i]good[/i] copies to give to a friend, so it wasn't a big deal.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='philothea' date='Apr 12 2006, 10:13 PM']Well, if by relatively recently you mean the last two hundred years or so... :

Copyright is a modern development, but it's still a lot older than any of us.   Until recently, no one could make [i]good[/i] copies to give to a friend, so it wasn't a big deal.
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I just read a fascinatingly nerdy book on copyright law written by an English professor about how authors like Harriet Beecher Stowe and James Fenimore Cooper fought for copyright protection of their books. The arguments of the day were much the same as the music arguments we're having now ... the rights of the public to information vs. the rights of the creators of the work for just compensation for their skills. Same debate, different folks.

[Excelsior1027]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='Apr 8 2006, 06:02 PM']Therefore, copying CDs (of course, copying them for your own personal use is absolutely legal, since you're not duplicating something and then giving it away when that duplcation could have been sold) and then giving them away is sinful. 

HOWEVER, given the facts above, is it GRAVELY sinful, that, people, is the question.
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Yeah, but it's still a sin either way, right? Either way it's wrong.

[prose]

I don't believe it is wrong to copy what you already own and have paid for for your own personal use.

And I am still not entirely convinced that burning CDs is a sin either. I pay for the right to burn material onto a CD when I buy blank CDs (in the form of an added tax for blank cds cassettes etc). So I am paying there.

I have consulted with priests about it, and two separate ones on two separate occasions told me it was not a sin (both conservative priests).

So I am not convinced.

[prose]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='Apr 8 2006, 03:02 PM']Think about it.  You go to your local entertainment store, lets say, Best Buy.  On average, at any entertainment store, a CD would probably cost anwhere from 14-20 bucks, even new releases, which usually cost closer to 20ish.  First of all, the store that carries the cd makes money.

Then the delivery company that trucked it there.
Then the company that made the case.
Then the company that made the disc.
The producers.
The technicians.
Basically all the people who get credited on the CD book and more.


ERGO

Making CDs and selling them CAN'T be crucial to their livelihood. 


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Keep in mind it is crucial to the livelihood of:
First of all, the store that carries the cd makes money.
Then the delivery company that trucked it there.
Then the company that made the case.
Then the company that made the disc.
The producers.
The technicians.
Basically all the people who get credited on the CD book and more.