Sojourner Posted March 30, 2006 Posted March 30, 2006 [quote name='Lil Red' date='Mar 30 2006, 02:55 PM']you guys need to argue more [right][snapback]928546[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No we don't. :
MC Just Posted March 30, 2006 Posted March 30, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 29 2006, 08:36 PM']Its no wonder that I heart you We agree so often [right][snapback]927850[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Its good to see you agreeing with him. lol
jasJis Posted March 30, 2006 Posted March 30, 2006 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Mar 30 2006, 08:25 AM']The only critique I have of it is that it doesn't provide a means for current aliens to get some form of amnesty. Amnesty for people who are currently illegally residing in the country makes good business sense, although I'm sure it doesn't have enough popular backing for it to make political sense. [right][snapback]928231[/snapback][/right] [/quote]The problem with giving illegals amnesty, is that it isn't fair to those who have legally immigrated, or have legal work visas. Many hispanics from rural area (Mexico, Centeral Am, So. Am, Islands) do not even begin to comprehend the legal culture of the US. They will be duped, intimidated, and expolited for cheap labor because the market is there. The US has the jobs, they won't go away. What needs to be done, is ensure every single worker recieves a fair wage. A fair wage is determined by market forces. If you have a populace of legal and capable workers, a business owner will hire and pay the least amount that he can get sufficient labor for. If the employer can only hire legal workers, the legal workers also have the option of getting jobs other than picking fruit. The farmer would have to compete with people who do skilled labor, block masons, flat work concrete, sheet rock, roofers, etc., that don't require education, but where skills are obtained by on the job experience. Who, with other options available to them, would choose to pick s'berries at $1/flat, when they can get on a construction crew, start at $8 and hour, and in less than a year, be making at least $10 with benefits? If amnesty is given, it does not solve the problem for future immigrants. They will be convinced, if they sneak in, wait a few years, they will get citizenship and be able to get the good jobs. Meanwhile, they are indentured servants or slaves in labor work gangs. Unable to engage freely in our society because they are illegal. Not knowing what labor laws are being broken because they don't know what is wrong and who to report it to. How would they know they've been there long enough? Their life may still be better than living in the mountains in Panama, but is it really the opportunity that is available in America? Who really benefits? It's not the farmers as much, because the farmer next door is using the same labor rates so they are competing for business. In fact, an honest farmer is forced to underpay or higer illegals to match the margins of a dishonest farmer. (When I say farmer, think bigger company that has farm managers.) Amnesty treats a symptom, but is not part of the cure. The cure is to make legal immigration the desireable and possible option. The cure also is to enforce existing labor laws and make ALL employers follow them. I'm in construction. There are LOTS of companies that hire illegals and get away with it. Of course they are cheaper than others, because they don't pay payroll taxes, don't pay workers comp, and pay less in wages. I have to compete while paying all taxes, worker comp, and provide benefits such as free health insurance. I have to abandon the private construction market where laws aren't enforced, and only do government work where laws are sometimes enforced. Meanwhile, fat lazy average Americans complain when they have to pay $40 to get their yard mowed and a tomatoe may cost $3 bucks. The employers will always make their profit, and don't make extra profit because wide-spread exploitation forces them to compete with other labor exploiters. The cheap goods and services are cheaper than they should be because the discount is bought and paid for by the lowest of the poor, the illegal immigrant whose only other option is to go back to their own country and be even more poor and live in even worse conditions. America must make clear choices. If you want people to get fair wages, then you pay for the labor costs of the goods and services you buy. It is stupid to think taxes come from somwhere else, and that will provide help to the illegal immigrants. The illegals wouldn't need our help if they were really able to take advantage of the opportunites fairly. There really are worse jobs than picking fruit, and it doesn't take a union and high wages to get people to do them. How many illegals mine coal, work in lumber mills, make steel, work in a chemical plant? These jobs don't require an education, but training that is gained by otj experience. Illegals work in construction, food processing, picking, because large groups of people are hired on a temporary basis whick allows labor gangs to pimp their people. Labor gangs have an endless supply of desperate people who are willing to work cheap and in awful conditions because it's better than in their home country. Yeah, that's great for our economy that we can buy tacos, so very tasty and good for you, for less than a buck, instead of $1.5 or $2. You won't fix it by boycotting Taco Bell and eating at your neighborhood taqeria.
peach_cube Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 jas, Definitely agree with you there. The question is do we really want to fix it or are we just paying lip service to the issue? Explotation of a cheap workforce seems to be the buisness standard when dealing with any MNC and it seems that it is the default buisness model in the world today. If the men that have the most influence in the government are being influenced by the most prominent buisness leaders it should be no suprise that we are not doing what is best. You have some excellent points. Of course the american "consumer" would be outraged at having to pay more for tomatoes and other edible goods, but we'll gladly pay $600 a year for standard digital cable.
Theoketos Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 The arguement about it not being fair to those who have complied with the system is true. However, one does not correct this by screwing over everyone else. I am not sure if there is a temporal solution for the government to follow on that. Maybe they should get five bucks from j(h)amie? (Or seriously a tax credit or something)?
Sojourner Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 Jas, I'm not saying that we need straight, no strings attached amnesty. And, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some sort of penalty for having immigrated without the proper documentation. The problem is that as the law currently stands, there is no way for many of those currently in the country illegally to get to legal status. Most of them are barred from applying for legal status for three or ten years, depending on how long they've been here. Why not levy a fine on undocumented immigrants who want to stay and get to legal status? I know plenty of people who are desperate to find some sort of means to get to legal status and would be happy to pay ... they just don't HAVE a way to get to legal status. Instituting a fine in conjunction with allowing for more guest workers seems to be a good way of addressing both the needs of current businesses and of future immigrants.
Jaime Posted March 31, 2006 Author Posted March 31, 2006 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Mar 30 2006, 10:38 PM']The arguement about it not being fair to those who have complied with the system is true. However, one does not correct this by screwing over everyone else. I am not sure if there is a temporal solution for the government to follow on that. Maybe they should get five bucks from j(h)amie? (Or seriously a tax credit or something)? [right][snapback]929136[/snapback][/right] [/quote] James would that be five bucks total or per illegal? *looks at checkbook balance* Let's see.. that's 5 bucks times 11 million... I'm going to need more checks!
jasJis Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 I disagree 100% on levying ANY fine on illegal immigrant. The pocket that should be fined is the employer. That money should be used to expand the immigration department. Immigration laws and proceedures should be addressed and streamlined. One of the biggest things is the quotas need to be revised. Illegals have the advantage of having a little more $$ and wherewithal if they've been in this Country. They should get in line just as everyone else once new immigration laws or proceedures are in place. The only advantage they get is for the Gov to first go after the employers, not the workers. It won't be a perfect transition, but eventually it will work out. I know way too many legal immigrants that came here with nothing. Mexican, Guatamala, Panama, Costa Rican, Cuban, Haitian, Jamacian, Columbian, Iraqi, Jordanian, Cambodian, Viet Namese, etc., that make it with a little help. They were no smarter, no richer, no better then the many hispanic illegals I come accross. What's the difference? They have more opportunities for other jobs. They don't have to subject themselves to labor pimps to find work, housing, etc. They learn to rent better places to live, can sign up for utitilites, say NO to working for $3 an hour plus board (which would be a condemned mobile home). The people who hire illegals are the ones that should be punished to remove the reason why illegals come. When Mahoney wants to feed and shelter illegals, he isn't doing the illegals any real favor, he's feeding and sheltering the 'slaves' for the slave pimps to come and put them to work. If Mahoney could put two thoughts together, he should have organized the legal hispanics to press the government to put the slave laborers out of business and correct the immigration laws to allow the US labor force to import people legally and continue the real American dream.
Jaime Posted March 31, 2006 Author Posted March 31, 2006 [quote] When Mahoney wants to feed and shelter illegals, he isn't doing the illegals any real favor, he's feeding and sheltering the 'slaves' for the slave pimps to come and put them to work. If Mahoney could put two thoughts together, he should have organized the legal hispanics to press the government to put the slave laborers out of business and correct the immigration laws to allow the US labor force to import people legally and continue the real American dream.[/quote] Perhaps, and this is just crazy talk, he wants to do both. Just as the bishops and cardinals actively work to do both in Central and South America where plantation workers are truly treated as slaves. It has to be a multi faceted venture. And making it a felony to take care of the poor, is wrong.
Sojourner Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 Fining employers is never going to fly. You can't require employers to be document experts. The current standards for employers is that they check documents (a "good faith effort") and that the documents aren't obvious forgeries. Even if they get a letter back from the Social Security Administration saying that the number they've provided for an individual doesn't match up with SSA's records, employers aren't supposed to rely on that as grounds to fire someone because (gasp) the gov't can mess up. Immigration status isn't always readily apparent, and requiring employers to make that determination will never fly in the business community ... and we all know they're the ones driving government. Now, if a business KNOWINGLY hires an immigrant that's a different matter ... but the burden of proof in such situations is on the government ... and really, the IRS is the agency that levies fines in such cases and the fines are pretty small.
jasJis Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 Yes you can fine emplyers. I check documents all the time. One doesn't have to be an expert. I do know of companies and employers who knowingly have hired illegals, were caught, and were not fined. They only had to show a completed I9 form for all employees and were subjected to regular checks. The IRS fines are not what you think they are, they are for failure to pay SS and FICA taxes and are rarely enforced.
Sojourner Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 31 2006, 09:26 AM']Yes you can fine emplyers. I check documents all the time. One doesn't have to be an expert. I do know of companies and employers who knowingly have hired illegals, were caught, and were not fined. They only had to show a completed I9 form for all employees and were subjected to regular checks. The IRS fines are not what you think they are, they are for failure to pay SS and FICA taxes and are rarely enforced. [right][snapback]929544[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Of course you CAN fine employers but I just don't think that's really a good option. In order to have such a fine be effective, you'd HAVE to require that employers be document experts and do all sorts of checks to make sure the people they hire are indeed authorized to work in the U.S. It would cause discrimination suits up the wazoo, because employers would be suspicious in cases where they shouldn't be and not suspicious in cases where they should be. The practicalities of requiring employers to be more vigilant about hiring undocumented workers and fining them preclude that being a realistic option. Not that our gov't won't ENACT such an option; I just don't think it's really workable. Fining the immigrants themselves is really the key. You break the law, you pay a fine. They're coming here to work because they have a financial incentive to do so. Take that incentive away, or make it less appealing and Voila! you see a decrease in illegal immigration. It will be much more effective than fining businesses, because immigrants have no resources to fight such fines and defend against them, whereas businesses DO have such resources.
jasJis Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 Soj, Then we have to agree to disagree. I check docs many times a week, and have for years. Yes, there are a few that have good fakes and the average person would not know they are fake. But erased and typed, poorly typed, different fonts for name and #, visible remnants of other names or numbers, bleached out cards, etc., are obvious. Mexicans around here call them 'bent-docs', a play on words because they look crappy (bent) and you buy them for $20, (viente). Immigrants are already poor, I don't see any reason knocking them back a notch. There are two incentives, one for the illegals to work so they can live better then in their home country, and two, labor pimps and employers who want cheap labor so they are competive in the market, or competitive with others who are breaking the law. Two sets of laws are being broken, two sets of people need to be prosecuted. Just as illegal immigrants shouldn't get a pass (amnesty), neither should employers get a pass for breaking the laws. Actually, as far as farm work and construction, the bulk of the illegals are part of labor gangs and are pimped out. The labor pimps may go to a farmer and give him a price per flat of 'berries to be picked. The farmer says go ahead, and it's the labor pimp who takes care of the hourly rates, etc. If he get's caught, or the field get's raided by INS, he just goes to a broker and gets into contact with more illegals and he's back in business in a week. Both law breakers have to have the incentives removed. The illegal workers just want to work and have no way to act upon the incentive to have legal, better paying jobs because they are illegal. People will do what's quickest and easiest. If you and your familiy are living in abject poverty in the DR, being an illegal in the US picking fruit is great. Not 10 minutes ago, the son of an illegal, along with other workers were making comments about our 'mascot' rooster that hangs out and we feed. The rooster is an escaped fighting rooster. He told a story that when he and his parents first got here they couldn't believe all the fat chickens running around wild. He and his family went nuts, eating and all the chickens they could catch for free. Can most American's even picture themselves eating road chicken, much less being amazed at their good fortune?
Sojourner Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 Jas, I agree that it's not fair. But if we really want to stop illegal immigration, which everyone seems to be in agreement NEEDS to be stopped, I just don't see fines on businesses being as effective as fines on the immigrants themselves. And, if a business really wants to keep an employee the business can pay the fine (which around here, many do ... my friend who's an immigration lawyer tells me she regularly gets requests from businesses to help sponsor their undocumented employees in gaining legal status. She can't help them, because the law doesn't -- and won't in the current proposal -- allow for these folks to get to legal status.) Maybe a "fee" is better than a fine. Enforcement, setting standards for businesses, etc., is just too difficult and not workable on the scale we're talking about. I suspect business owners would just take the chance of being audited, then plead ignorance ... just like they do now. I just don't see it being really workable without imposing huge burdens on businesses AND on taxpayers -- we are, after all, the ones who are going to bear the cost of litigation and enforcement. With upwards of 11 million undocumented immigrants (estimates are tough, of course) enforcement is really going to be an issue. We have to look at alternatives to enforcement. Enforcement alone is not going to do the trick. And it's simply not feasible to deport 11 million people. There must be some mechanism put in place for them to gain legal status.
Sojourner Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 BTW, jas, it's nice having you around. I've missed debating with you.
J.R.D Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 Sojourner you know you say that illagal immagration NEEDS to be stopped. What would have happened if our forefathers were stopped? Must we forget that George Washington (our 1st president) was an immagrent! And when ever you say "we'er" who are you talkin about?
Theoketos Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 [quote name='J.R.D' date='Mar 31 2006, 02:21 PM']Sojourner you know you say that illagal immagration NEEDS to be stopped. What would have happened if our forefathers were stopped? Must we forget that George Washington (our 1st president) was an immagrent! And when ever you say "we'er" who are you talkin about? [right][snapback]929954[/snapback][/right] [/quote] George Washington was not an illegal immigrent. Immigration is necessary and just, illegal immagration is unnecessary and unjust.
Socrates Posted April 1, 2006 Posted April 1, 2006 [quote name='J.R.D' date='Mar 31 2006, 02:21 PM']Sojourner you know you say that illagal immagration NEEDS to be stopped. What would have happened if our forefathers were stopped? Must we forget that George Washington (our 1st president) was an immagrent! And when ever you say "we'er" who are you talkin about? [right][snapback]929954[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington"]George Washington[/url] was [b]not[/b] an immigrant - he was born and raised in Virginia! (Geez, what do they teach in schools nowadays??) And the debate is about [b]illegal[/b] immigrants, not people who came here legally. And Sojourner is generally very pro-immigration, if you look at her posts.
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