Conversion

[Servant_of_Eve]

Is it easier to convert catholics who are either ignorant of their faith or fallen away, or is it easier to convert non-catholics?

[qfnol31]

In my experience it depends on the person...I think it's easier to inspire fallen-away Catholics rather than convert non-Catholics.

[goldenchild17]

That has been my experience as well.

[Myles Domini]

It depends on the fallen away Catholic. For instance, in my experience some fallen away Catholics who have been seduced by the liberal 'gospel' are an impenetrable wall when it comes to talking to about the faith. The minute you say the word 'Catholic' its as if neon lights saying 'abortion' and 'contraception' start flashing around your head and the conversation effectively ends. You may still be talking but the person sure isn't listening!

Sometimes, indeed much of the time, the unchurched are much easier to dialogue with. They have no knowledge or grasp of Christianity they're not really athiests they've just grown up in a cultural milieu where God was absent so its all new to them. They haven't got many preconceptions and though it may just be tickling the ears of Areopagites sometimes they're at least, generally, willing to give you a hearing.

[blovedwolfofgod]

I think it depends on your ministry and your gifts. For instance, I dont think I can effectively influence even one person to convert to the truth... but the fallen away Catholics, well, God gave me a gift. As for fallen away Christians, sometimes I can at least put them on the path back to Jesus (tho often with scruples because i dont try to make them catholic, just try to get them back to church and the Bible)..

I cant work with anything unless there is already a basis. So, I think it depends on your ministry.

[Era Might]

Better to be cold than lukewarm.

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

What i am about to say, is in no way supposed to sound like an absolution for catholics who have fallen away, so please don't misinterpret it.

I think there are a lot of things that push and pull catholics away. In most cases they are to blame, because they make the decision to turn away.

For some, there parents never made a big deal. They were raised in a household of cultural catholics, who went to mass with the family on easters and christmasses. These are the easiest to get to. I will explain what their parents situation may be in a second. But as for them, the Catholic church is a world of mystery, and the second they encounter someone who is excited about the holy faith of the church, they will instantly be turned on. They will have questions, and will be attentive. Sometimes, they will have parents who will be VERY opposing to their faith decision. They will, encounter persecution first hand from the ones they love, and will therefore, if mature, take the faith message all the more seriously. They have been given reasons all their life to not have faith or take part in their church. All they really need is a reason to do those things.

For some, per chance people like the parents i just mentioned, or those who are hurt. They have some kind of animosity and unforgiveness in their hearts against some particular priest, or worse their parents. They encountered some sort of hypocritical catholic in their lives. And as a result they somehow blame the catholic church for all sorts of nonsense. These people, if you delve deeper, tend to have made some sort of mistake in their lives, perhaps a sin against a loved one, like a parent, and never experienced forgiveness. They have not learned to forgive. These are very difficult. They are always critical, and are always looking for fault with the church. If they become protestant, they look for biblical reasons to hate the church. If they become atheist or agnostic, they look for scientific or political reasons to hate the church. But they are all the same, the ultra-conservative prods and the ultra-liberals. These people have made the decision to turn away from God not based on intellectual rational reasons, and WILL PROBABLY NOT be turned back for intellectual rational reasons. They made a decision based on emotions, so they need emotional reasons. They need forgiveness, love, healing, mercy first. However, if one of these persons is encountered a crisis in life, they may be more open to just about anything you can offer.

I find that non-catholics are more similar to the first group. They need a reason to believe. If they come from an anti-catholic protestant background, all they need is for the misconception to be knocked down. If they are convinced first that you have a personal relationship with Jesus, and that you read the bible and aware of it, then they will realize that not call catholics fit the stereotype. They will be open to intelligent conversation.

I don't believe that fallen away and non-catholics is an accurate division. More accurately it would be those who have been hurt by a catholic and those who have not.

SHALOM

[MichaelFilo]

If they didn't teach you anything in Catholic school, or Sunday school (they gave me a minimial education, worry not), then let me tell you, baptism leaves an unremovable mark on your soul. Once your Catholic, your always Catholic. I believe that the entirity of Canon Law applies to a Catholic even if they fall away and come back during the whole duration except for 2 exceptions, one dealing with marriage.

Anywho, of course it's easier for a baptized Catholic to return to their Faith, they already received it in baptism, and if they've received Communion, well, it's that much easier.

That aside, the only person that have been converted due to my efforts (and by that I mean, the Spirit's work through me, since certainly, i'm a blathering idiot, so it's hard to accomplish such high feats) was not a Catholic, but an Episcopalean. Mind you, since they have valid baptisms, they are almost as likely to convert as a fallen away baptized Catholic who's parents taught them minimally about the Faith.

God bless,
Mikey

[dspen2005]

fallen away Catholics usually don't have an intellectual problem w/ the Church, they KNOW that she is TRUTH. there prob is emotional -- so says, one of my Theology profs

[jasJis]

Assumptions, assumptions. It's easier to convert an agnostic or aetheist.

[MichaelFilo]

wait, jasjis is an ex-catholic? Seriously, what the hell?

How am I supposed to convert the whole world to Christ's Church if His Church won't even stick together.

Whatever, I'm hoping your profile is a joke, or I'll have yet another dissapointment in life to add to the reasons why life is truely not worth living, except for the fact that Christ's Church doesn't look kindly on suicide out of despair.

God bless,
Mikey

[Brother Adam]

Those with harder hearts are harder to convert than those who are open to God. I think that is the only true distinction that can be made.

[jasJis]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 06:30 PM']wait, jasjis is an ex-catholic? Seriously, what the hell?

How am I supposed to convert the whole world to Christ's Church if His Church won't even stick together.

Whatever, I'm hoping your profile is a joke, or I'll have yet another dissapointment in life to add to the reasons why life is truely not worth living, except for the fact that Christ's Church doesn't look kindly on suicide out of despair.

God bless,
Mikey
[right][snapback]951379[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]Never be disappointed in people you don't know. And never let your disappointment in others bring you dispair. Catholic or not, God doesn't look kindly on suicide.

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Apr 17 2006, 06:19 PM']fallen away Catholics usually don't have an intellectual problem w/ the Church, they KNOW that she is TRUTH.  there prob is emotional -- so says, one of my Theology profs
[right][snapback]951355[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Thats exactly what i was trying to say, except nobody wants to read my terribly boring unnecesarily elaborated post.

SHALOM

[MichaelFilo]

The problem is, it's not true.

Fallen away Catholics CAN have problems with the Catholic Church. Wasn't Call to Action one such group. I believe some former priests have left the Catholic Church too... these are intellectual differences with the Church.

It is wrong to even say half the reasons are emotional, I'd say today's biggest reason is apathy.

God bless,
Mikey

[ironmonk]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:54 PM']The problem is, it's not true.

Fallen away Catholics CAN have problems with the Catholic Church. Wasn't Call to Action one such group. I believe some former priests have left the Catholic Church too... these are intellectual differences with the Church.

It is wrong to even say half the reasons are emotional, I'd say today's biggest reason is apathy.

God bless,
Mikey
[right][snapback]951425[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Something I have come to believe from those who I have dialoged with is that it tends to be a sin. Often, they'll say one thing, but after further investigation I find a deep rooted sin... Satan attacks us just as he did Eve... slowly (he has lots of time), and with our own reasoning. We tend to make an expection for a sin, and then when our conscience becomes to loud and the rationalization does not work anymore, we stop frequenting the Mass and sacraments... the flow of grace stops and we fall deeper... Satan divides and conquers... he cuts us off from the source of Grace, and then tricks us into embracing a habitual sin.

A prime example is a woman I know, she was (she says "is") Catholic... she went to Catholic school... and when talking with her, she said "We were always told to question our faith and I think abortion is up to the woman. It wouldn't be something that I would do but I cannot say it's wrong." - Which I was speachless at the time... I couldn't believe what I was hearing... too many people have the pompous belief that "to question" means to pull the answers out of thin air... like she did... she became her own pope... her own reasoning was all she went by instead of actually looking for answers like anyone who knows how to think would do. I still know this woman and she has a few kids with her husband (she's his third wife), and now they are swingers... I've know her for quite some time now. No one likes to be told they are wrong, and with her trying to talk to her about it was all but impossible... and it came down to embracing a sin, I think that these people do care but they try to shut the conscience up by appearing to not be concerned and avoiding what reminds them that they are living in a wrong way.


[b]Detach yourself from people and things until you are stripped of them. For, says Pope Saint Gregory, the devil has nothing of his own in this world, and naked he comes to battle. If you go clothed to fight him, you will soon be pulled to the ground: for he will have something to catch you by.
- St. Josemaria Escriva, The Way #149[/b]

[MichaelFilo]

You win, tgheres more than one reason to get there.. apathy.. bad experience.. sin.. ahh.. Satan, why art thou so good at being bad?

Anywho, I would have ot agree, thats the one that pulls the faithful Catholic stock who wouldn't be shaken by a bad experience.

God bless,
Mikey

[Maria]

It depends so much on the person... personnally I tend to find prots easiest to get somewhere with. People who have had a minimal Catholic upbringing tend to feel that they've heard it all. I don't know... I tend to go further with people who have already been converted to Christ.
Well, at least if we're not talking about children.

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 06:54 PM']The problem is, it's not true.

Fallen away Catholics CAN have problems with the Catholic Church. Wasn't Call to Action one such group. I believe some former priests have left the Catholic Church too... these are intellectual differences with the Church.

It is wrong to even say half the reasons are emotional, I'd say today's biggest reason is apathy.

God bless,
Mikey
[right][snapback]951425[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Catholics do leave for intellectual reasons. I believe that. But i have never encountered one in my life.

But as i was saying, i have experienced many people who left the church, over a sin deep in their hearts. Most of the time they dont believe God or the Church would forgive them, because they have never experienced forgiveness in their lives. because of this, they make the decision to leave with a broken heart. and let whatever makes them feel nice and warm in their misery dictate their worldview. If that is a liberal progressive agenda with an emphasis on don't judge, they fall into that trap. It is an emotional thought process that descends someone into a trap of sin, where only the truth, that is Christ can set them free in loving mercy.

But perhaps i am wrong, and am just ranting nonsense as i am always accused of doing. But that is just the opinion of worthless me thank you very much!!!
SHALOM

[MichaelFilo]

I like you, because you made an arguement that made sense. You are right, of course, but it does happen. The root of all division is sin. I didn't neccessarily equate the word emotional reasons with sin.. but hey, you did, and I agree with that.

God bless,
Mikey