jasJis Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 05:53 PM']im breaking the 4th. but my confessor said i could. i really don't know what to do. [right][snapback]951325[/snapback][/right] [/quote]Imagine that!
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) Since this is really a matter of what is appropriate to men and women in dress, there are some passages in the Bible that are of some relevance, but only two come to mind. One is on cross dressing Deuteronomy 22 verse 5 (underlined in my bible for convinience, cause this comes up alot) "A woman shall not wear an article proper to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's dress; for anyone who oes such things is an abomination to the Lord, your God". That, for some reason doesn't settle it for some people. "Why can't we be more sexually equally, God and all His rules and such". Luckily, the opposition isn't all that annoyingly whiny, and a fair rebuttal is but 5 verses down, saying that we should not wear clothing of mixed threads, that is wool and linen woven together. In reality, the whole list seems to be made for the benefit of the Israelite people, and none of it is binding on us today. Sort of. Some of the regulations were moral regulations (which, by the very nature of being moral regulations, are based on moral truths, which were true before the Old Law, and are certainly true in the New Law) while others were more restrictions put on the people for their own benefit, but were not of moral binding (such as, not yoking an ox and an ass together, or eating certain meats). However, because of the legalistic nature of the Old Law, they were held to be of the same importance as the moral realities (that is part of the freedom inherent in the death of Christ). Anywho, I'd share the New Testament quote, but this isn't Xanga, and no one reads long posts. Basically, men are told not to wear their hair long in Corinthians, and I, having grown out my hair past my shoulder length (by alot), put it up in Church. That same passage says women ought to wear head coverings. It ends with the comment that none of these things are customs of the Church, simply of Corinth... who knows. The arguement seems convincing enough. Anyway, women wear pants, this is bad. STart being women again, and yes, that is portrayed in your clothing, or else no one would have a problem with me wearing a one peice bikini, right? right? any takers.. didn't think so. God bless, Mikey Edited April 18, 2006 by MichaelFilo
homeschoolmom Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Wearing pants made for a woman is not cross dressing.
Tata126 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) I prefer to wear skirts and dresses, I do think they look more feminine, and I like the fact that I'm treated with more respect when I'm dressed up, but people who tell me that I subconsciously think I'm a man when I'm wearing pants are full of it. Is it not possible to wear a feminine blouse with jeans? Does a woman wearing a pretty blouse and pants look like a man? Extra Ecclesiam, if you're confused about the gender of women wearing jeans, that's something to talk to a psychiatrist about, not us. Like I said, I prefer to wear a skirt most of the time, but there are some times when you just can't. Like, I generally wear jeans to ride horses, and wearing a skirt to hang Christmas lights on the roof would be rather dangerous. And when one curls up somewhere with a book, it's useful to be wearing pants so one can decently pull one's knees up to one's chest. I really don't think that I'm less of a woman on the occasions when I choose comfort and a wider range of motion over more girly clothes. Edited April 18, 2006 by Tata126
philothea Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 17 2006, 02:39 PM']I don't think women should wear pants. It's never too cold for some Daisy Dukes. [right][snapback]951107[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Whenever I see the title of this topic, I think, (1) "Gosh, no pants... kinda racy" and (2) "Ugh, I'd be cold!!" Maybe, "Women should wear skirts" would be a more accurate title... Not that I'd agree. :
missionarybelle Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote][quote]I have had guys tell me that they are [b]less[/b] tempted to look at a woman's backside inapropriately if they are in a skirt than if they are in jeans.[/quote] * one could argue that is because men always see women in pants, not being feminine. and then when they do see them being feminine, they are more tempted. *not that i really believe that, but it's an interesting point*[/quote] it looks like you are saying that men find it more tempting when women wear skirts and are feminine. I said that he told me it was more tempting when they wear pants. did I understand your post right?
Farsight one Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 I find it more tempting when women wear skirts, and in fact, in some cases, full length dresses as well. I have a female friend who most often wears pants or loose fitting jeans. Now, I don't LOOK, but sometimes you just glance in a certain direction at the wrong time and you notice things. I impulsively thought that she doesn't seem to have much of a "backside" and then pushed the thought from my mind as quickly as possible. Several weeks later she was wearing a dress for a program she was putting on at school and my passing thought from before sure was proven wrong. I went to the program support my friend, but I almost found myself leaving early because I was becoming too tempted to stare. Tight jeans sure are innapropriate - in men as well as women. As for loose fitting jeans/pants and skirts - loose fitting jeans/pants reveal the general shape of a woman more. However, a skirt or dress hugs much tighter to the backside. Both manners of clothing can be tempting to a man in their own way. We are not made good Catholics by ridding temptation and running from it at any chance we get, but by having the capacity to resist such temptations. At my college, certain rules of modesty are in place to help people become or remain moral people, but out in the real world, you just don't have control over it. You can't run from the billboard advertising a strip joint that you have to drive by every day on your way to work. You have to deal with it (lest you can afford the money needed to by the advertising space) and resist the temptation. It is THAT that makes one a good christian. As for women wearing pants to become like men? I happen to be a psychologist and I can tell you that the cardinal's belief of such a thing is horribly unfounded. He is a MAN for one thing, not a woman, and thus does not think like one. Some people are good at looking at a situation through another's eyes. However, I doubt that this cardinal has that ability when it comes to women. He is a cardinal, and as such spends most of his time with other cardinals and bishops. For the most part, his interaction with women would be little more than a greeting and a blessing. Not nearly enough to get to know the woman well enough to be able to predict her thoughts (some married couples still can't do that). He may know a few women well enough, but a few is not an accurate representation of the whole of women. His belief is simply completely unfounded. Its based on worse assumptions than the beliefs of Sigmund Freud.
philothea Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 FWIW, some history of pants/trousers. The first known trousers in history occur on nomadic horse-riding Eurasians... [b]on both the men and the women[/b]. Modern European use of trousers developed slowly, over time, from the hose and doublet that men wore (with some influence from the Church, insisting that men actually cover their privates ). All the various bits got sewn together, and eventually this became something kinda pant-like. However, the first clothes similar to what we wear nowadays were breeches, worn by working people -- sailors, field hands, etc. They were adopted by everyone during the French Revolution to show unity with the working people. These trousers were so comfortable and useful that eventually all men wore them. However, women didn't work, so there was (generally) no need for them to wear pants. In the Victorian era women wore pants when they worked in coal mines. Women have frequently worn pants for horseback riding. During WWII, wearing pants in factories became common for women. Here's the thing: wearing pants IS PRACTICAL. Pants are necessary for going out and working and being active. Society has changed. Women having switched from skirts to pants is not a cause, it's an effect.
Azriel Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Personally I find it incredibly horrid to vacuum in an evening dress and pearls, but hey if Donna Reed could do it ....
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Well, once you put your ad hominem attacks to the side (that too was an ad hominem attack, who woulda thunk it?) I think we may continue. My good friend CatholicCrusader, and Amerkich (his brother?) long ago gave a most beautiful defense of the why pants are very much a man thing, and why the fact that women wear them today is nothing more than an extention of a gdner-role destroying ideology. I think this discussion would be much more productive if we broke down the kind of pants, as in dress pants, jeans, etc. I think Jeans is a pretty easy one, but thats me trying to direct this beast of a thread which is asking EENS to seek psychiatric help, and I haven't even said anything. I believe I'm more at odds with ye neo-conservatives then he is. God bless, Mikey
Azriel Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Pants on women are a practicality. Personally, as a woman, I can vouch for the fact that me wearing jeans while I'm scrubbing the floor doesn't make me want to be a man. Besides, I accidently tried to put hubby's jeans ... .simple fact - women can't wear men's pants because they have hips. My Grandmother was a "Rosie the Rivieter" girl. Should she have not put on pants to make bomb sights? She sure enough slapped on her head covering when she went to Mass every Sunday. I wish my world was as black and white as some people's views. I think it would be a much easier way of life.
toledo_jesus Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote]I can't wait to have my own kitchen! Hmm, blueberry or apple??[/quote] [quote]You're my hero. <Track scurries back to the kitchen> [/quote] [quote]I keep getting told that I need to bake. Me, bake? huh.gif idontknow.gif[/quote] [quote]actually I'm taking a break from cooking for my family tonight. but I guess I'm a failure because I haven't baked a pie in over a month....[/quote] Ahhhh, dignum et iustum Est. My heart swells with pride. Such a fine group.
philothea Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Apr 17 2006, 06:52 PM']Ahhhh, dignum et iustum Est. My heart swells with pride. Such a fine group. [right][snapback]951421[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Is that your heart or your waistline? :
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Sam, did you know that the Bishop who said the quote about your grandmother doing it also said in the same article, "Similarly Michael Davies is conservative rather than Traditional, he is certainly not 100% behind the Society of St. Pius X, but like Malachi Martin he can reach many a listener closed to the Society, at least for now." Now that's just strange.
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Apr 17 2006, 07:52 PM']Ahhhh, dignum et iustum Est. My heart swells with pride. Such a fine group. [right][snapback]951421[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I hope since you quoted me you're not calling me a girl.
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:00 PM']Sam, did you know that the Bishop who said the quote about your grandmother doing it also said in the same article, "Similarly Michael Davies is conservative rather than Traditional, he is certainly not 100% behind the Society of St. Pius X, but like Malachi Martin he can reach many a listener closed to the Society, at least for now." Now that's just strange. [right][snapback]951431[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Oh, and as a girl pointed out, skirts aren't very natural to women...
MilesChristi Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Bishop Williamson']Hence while donning his emancipatory trousers, she feels uneasy[/quote] [quote name='Bishop Williamson']You wish to stop abortion? Do it by example. Never wear trousers or shorts. [/quote] No disrespect intended to the bishop, but I find this hilarious. I think I'm going to have to print his statement out and share it with some friends. God bless! Edited April 18, 2006 by MilesChristi
toledo_jesus Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:01 PM']I hope since you quoted me you're not calling me a girl. [right][snapback]951432[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If you are not a girl, then you should not be in the kitchen. GET OUT!
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:14 PM']If you are not a girl, then you should not be in the kitchen. GET OUT! [right][snapback]951448[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thank you, that's what I said!
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