Does "good Works" Get Any Plainer?!

[frozencell]

...that someone on the "other side" would have read this by now!!!

Ephesians 2:8-10 -

8-"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift - (9) not from works, so that no one can boast."

And this is where most Protestants stop. AND misinterpret. They state this as a verse for getting to heaven by faith alone. This verse isn't saying that! It simply states that we can't get into heaven by works alone and being good people. We get into heaven because God has seen fit to show us compassion, and only through His compassion can we get into heaven by believing in Him.

10-"For we are His creation - created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them."

HOLY COW!!!!! Talk about simple! So not only are we required to do good works, but now we were created for that very purpose. And so much that God "prepared them ahead of time so that we should walk in them." Seems to me that we should be doing good works ALL the time.

But, hey, that's just what MY Bible says. :D

[Circle_Master]

And protestants agree. However, it still says that we are saved by faith, and not works right? Thanks. Works are a result of salvation, not part of salvation, your passage affirms that.

[hyperdulia again]

faith without works is dead.

we could say that we are saved by faith that evidences works or any other of a plethora of formulas, but it isn't faith alone.

[Circle_Master]

and then you contradict Romans 4:1-2 which says Abraham was not justified by works, but by belief. And also Galatians 2:16 which says man is justified by faith. Even Romans 3:22 which talks about the righteousness of God ... 'through faith'.

Your verse itself is from James which also says "prove yourselves doers of the word" indicating what he is speaking of is AFTER salvation. Not at salvation.

[hyperdulia again]

at slavation? when is salvation btw?

and faith without works is dead. is it really your contention taht one can be saved by dead faith?

[Circle_Master]

of course not. Faith brings works, but it is a result of faith. Which is why all those passages say we are saved by 'FAITH', 'BELIEF', 'NOT WORKS'. And none of them say works bring salvation.

Salvation is when you accept the gospel message as the truth and give your life to the Lordship of Christ. That involves no works, but if it is true belief, it will result in works as you love God and you wish to please Him.

Ever browse through Romans?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for [the gospel] is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

For in [the gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Edited December 26, 2003 by Circle_Master

[dUSt]

and then you contradict  Romans 4:1-2 which says Abraham was not justified by works, but by belief.  And also Galatians 2:16 which says man is justified by faith.  Even Romans 3:22 which talks about the righteousness of God ... 'through faith'.

Your verse itself is from James which also says "prove yourselves doers of the word" indicating what he is speaking of is AFTER salvation.  Not at salvation.

Catholics don't believe we are not saved by faith. We are. You'll receive no argument from us regarding scripture, because, as Catholics, we hold scripture to be infallibly true.

Faith and works cannot be separated--you said as much in your post. Why the argument?

God bless.

[hyperdulia again]

i am sorry, but i've never been able to discern the difference between catholic teaching on faith and works and protestant belief in the same area. i always get the feeling that there's an almost retarded amount of restating the exact same position in two different ways.

Faith is not meritorious, sanctification is.

The Apostle James clearly teaches that "Faith without works is dead" [Jas 2:26], which directly contradicts Luther's slogan. Moreover, the Apostle presents this teaching in a context where the outworkings of love towards one's neighbours features as the key to receiving "the crown of life" [Jas 1:12]. This is identifiably the same teaching as given by Jesus in the parable of the sheep and the goats [Mat 25:31-46]. It is significant that Luther described St James' Epistle as "so much straw" and failed to include it in his translation of the New Testament.

St James points out that faith of itself cannot save a man [Jas 2:14], because it is intellectual only and so barren [Jas 2:19-20]. Luther's doctrine is self contradictory. The act of justifying faith seems to bring about justification as if it won God's approval by some intrinsic merit. To the extent that the believer's act of faith is seen as crucial in the process of justification, this faith is made the singly meritorious act.

We are saved by the Sanctifying Grace of God residing in our souls this grace cannot be present if we do that which is outside of the Father's will. If we have faith, but that faith is completely absent of works then sanctifying Grace is not present and we have no hope of being saved.

[Circle_Master]

Faith and works cannot be separated--you said as much in your post. Why the argument?

Our first poster said protestants were completely wrong, and said that works were commanded. I agree works are commanded, and that we are saved by faith. However, some people began arguing differently.

I will post this again, since I don't think some of you read it

and then you contradict Romans 4:1-2 which says Abraham was not justified by works, but by belief. And also Galatians 2:16 which says man is justified by faith. Even Romans 3:22 which talks about the righteousness of God ... 'through faith'.

We are always justified 'by faith'. What James speaks of is living your faith, and not just saying it. If we truly believe, there will be results. But the results do not bring salvation. The other passages affirm that.

Edited December 26, 2003 by Circle_Master

[hyperdulia again]

Lord Jesus deliver us from semantics.

[dUSt]

I will post this again, since I don't think some of you read it

and then you contradict Romans 4:1-2 which says Abraham was not justified by works, but by belief. And also Galatians 2:16 which says man is justified by faith. Even Romans 3:22 which talks about the righteousness of God ... 'through faith'.

We are always justified 'by faith'. What James speaks of is living your faith, and not just saying it. If we truly believe, there will be results. But the results do not bring salvation. The other passages affirm that.

I read it a second time and my answer remains the same. Catholics hold that scripture to be true. I don't get it.

Why don't you tell us what you think the Catholic position is. You may be making an argument against something we don't even teach.

[Circle_Master]

Faith is not meritorious, sanctification is.

That is what at least Hypersomething is arguing for. What I am saying is that Faith IS meritous, and it is what brings salvation. Not works. Which all the passages say.

[Circle_Master]

anyway I am going to bed. And yesterday, on a different thread called the gospel, many of you said that baptism, the eucherist, and confession were also necessary for salvation. This kindof contradicts 'faith alone' don't cha think?

[hyperdulia again]

sanctification (the process of faith working with works to MERIT grace) is meritorious.

faith as in faith in and of itsself is not meritorious. faith is believing. if i believe, but that belief bares no fruit. am i still right to expect to spend eternity with God?

once again i think this is a matter of semantics.

Edited December 26, 2003 by hyperdulia again

[hyperdulia again]

also i'd add that believing that faith without works is not saving faith and believing that faith and works are both necessary is substantively the same thing.

[Circle_Master]

perhaps your defination of faith is incorrect then, because all the passages said it was faith that brought salvation. Your logic is impeccable however, so thus your definition is wrong, or scripture is .

Faith is also seen as synonymous to belief. And seems to be the same idea as 'Calling on the LORD' in the Old Testament. This is more than just 'believing' something. It is a truth to you that you act upon. And it is something which grows by experience. Faith is never blind, but build upon proof.

and no to the faith and works thing, because I believe a person can be saved, and never have any works. I.E. someone on their death bed who 'genuinely' becomes saved. He never has a chance for works, sure he loves God and would do some, but there are none. Can a person be saved and walk in sin for a long time? Possibly, but I would doubt the genuineness of their faith from the beginning.

Edited December 26, 2003 by Circle_Master

[hyperdulia again]

Is there a part of your definition of faith taht you're expecting me to disagree with .

We should be holy as our Father in Heaven is holy.

adendum: the sacraments are physical signs of graces actually recieved by partaking of them, not good works.

[hyperdulia again]

"and no to the faith and works thing, because I believe a person can be saved, and never have any works. I.E. someone on their death bed who 'genuinely' becomes saved. He never has a chance for works, sure he loves God and would do some, but there are none. Can a person be saved and walk in sin for a long time? Possibly, but I would doubt the genuineness of their faith from the beginning."

This was added while I was outside.

I agree with every line of this. But we (or at least I am)are talking about what is NORMATIVE, not extraordinary circumstances involving an particular individual.

[frozencell]

anyway I am going to bed. And yesterday, on a different thread called the gospel, many of you said that baptism, the eucherist, and confession were also necessary for salvation. This kindof contradicts 'faith alone' don't cha think?

Last I checked the Catholic Church didn't believe in faith alone...so......

Secondly, we have to once again take Scripture in context. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I think the Apostle was only recalling individuals in the OT and nothing more. Let's remember that certain things changed in the Bible between the OT and the NT. We're no longer required to sacrifice animals and the like to God for His favor, but He does command that we believe in His Son's death as a prerequisite of salvation. Faith without works is like if I got a car loan for 25,000 dollars and never made my payments and getting to keep the car. It makes no sense. You cannot live in Christ and do what He commands, with faith or otherwise, without works. Therefore works are a requirement of salvation (excluding your friend on the deathbed...).

[Norseman82]

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only". (KJV)