Anthony Posted April 26, 2006 Posted April 26, 2006 [quote name='Tarcisius' post='961644' date='Apr 26 2006, 10:55 AM'] Lord have mercy. Never did I say, do not vote, I said do not vote for an evil party. Vote for a third party candidate. I call someones actions evil if they directly and obviously conflict with the Church. Which both Bush and Kerrys actions do. [/quote] What if the third party candidates views are much worse than either the Democratic or Replican candidates views? Should I still vote for a third party candidate? Should I vote at all then? How is that going to help anything? I would rather have a presidential candidate who stands up for what is right. Bush did just that. Yes, we are at war, but there is a reason (despite the number of people who died). Also, those who are fighting in the war in Iraq volunteered because they know that the only way that those people are ever going to have a good life is if we give the government back to them, which means getting rid of Sadaam Hussein; which we accomplished. There is a reason why we are fighting this war. I will agree that things weren't handled in the best way, but Bush is doing the best that he can. I hope you can one day recognize that.
indescribable Posted April 26, 2006 Posted April 26, 2006 it is not easy to be president true, but one could say others have done better. that's the point. he's not evil, he's just dumb and NOT the right guy for the job. changing horses in the middle of the stream would have been better. i don't think i should be forced to consent to murder and the lack of control of American soliders in iraq (another site found with evidence Iraqui prisoners had been tortured almost to the point of death- oh but that's okay cuz we can do that in gitmo too) because the president has a hard job. why can't the repubs or dems find anyone worthwhile? goodness somedays i just think if those dems could find a candidate that was prolife, they'd really have something going for them.
Fixxxer Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 a lot of the people who protest him are college kids who probally couldnt even do a tad better then bush is doing.
MichaelFilo Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 To be fair, it is equally disturbing to hear people scream the virtues of Bush as if he were some uberpresident as it is to hear those who complain as if he were Satan's handmaid. The last major terrorist attack on America, Pearl Harbor, was far worse in the damage it did to the US, and Franklin D. Roosevelt took to action in a way that not only the whole world supported, but the whole world supported with the same enthusiasm he had put forth. FDR is an uber president. Bush is somewhere between mediocre to second rate.If you choose to speak about the pressures of the presidency, then I care to submit that those pressures have come with every age and to every president. I care to submit the names of JFK and Ronald Reagen, who had quite a fun time with the Cold War, a much more serious threat to the US than terrorists. God bless, Mikey
Socrates Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 Hasn't this ground been tread over a thousand times here? Nothing new under the phatmass sun.
ironmonk Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 [quote name='Tarcisius' post='961481' date='Apr 26 2006, 09:58 AM'] I do not hate Bush, But I hate his sins, I hate what he stands for, I hate his evil actions. I hope that i am somehow wrong but by all evidence that i have seen he is a satanist working for people more evil and more powerful than him. [/quote] It still amazes me the lack of knowledge that people who say they hate him, have of him. Bush has done a great job. He was much better than Clinton. He is honest and has integrity. There were WMD's. The war was just according to the Catechism. Michael Moore totally lied in his movie. It should speak volumes to people who claim to be Catholic when the media and hollywood distorts the truth to the point of lying about Bush. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=14952"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=14952[/url] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=1748"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=1748[/url] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=22309"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=22309[/url] Bush is the best president a lot of people here have known, if they think otherwise then they have been dooped by the lies of the media and crooked dems in the senate. Also... don't be so stupid in regards to your faith... LEARN PROPORTIONAL REASONING! [quote][url="http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/bishopStatement.html#7"]http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/b...tatement.html#7[/url] [b]Human Life is the first priority.[/b] [b]Moral Priorities for Public Life (in order): 1) Protecting Human Life[/b] "Abortion and euthanasia have become preeminent threats to human life and dignity because they directly attack life itself, the most fundamental good and the condition for all others".28 Abortion, the deliberate killing of a human being before birth, is never morally acceptable [b]2) Promoting Family Life[/b] God established the family as the basic cell of human society. Therefore, we must strive to make the needs and concerns of families a central national priority. Marriage must be protected as a lifelong commitment between a man and a woman and our laws should reflect this principle. [b]3) Pursuing Social Justice[/b] [b]4) Practicing Global Solidarity[/b] ... Today's democratic societies . . . call for new and fuller forms of participation in public life by Christian and non-Christian citizens alike. Indeed, all can contribute, by voting in elections for lawmakers and government officials, and in other ways as well, to the development of political solutions and legislative choices which, in their opinion, will benefit the common good.5 In the Catholic tradition, responsible citizenship is a virtue; participation in the political process is a moral obligation. All believers are called to faithful citizenship, to become informed, active, and responsible participants in the political process. As we have said, "We encourage all citizens, particularly Catholics, to embrace their citizenship not merely as a duty and privilege, but as an opportunity meaningfully to participate [more fully] in building the culture of life. Every voice matters in the public forum. Every vote counts. Every act of responsible citizenship is an exercise of significant individual power ."6 Even those who are not citizens are called to participate in the debates which shape our common life. Life and Dignity of the Human Person Every human person is created in the image and likeness of God. Therefore, each person's life and dignity must be respected, whether that person is an innocent unborn child in a mother's womb, whether that person worked in the World Trade Center or a market in Baghdad, or even whether that person is a convicted criminal on death row. We believe that every human life is sacred from conception to natural death, that people are more important than things, and that the measure of every institution is whether it protects and respects the life and dignity of the human person. As the recent Vatican statement points out, "The Church recognizes that while democracy is the best expression of the direct participation of citizens in political choices, it succeeds only to the extent that it is based on a correct understanding of the human person. Catholic involvement in political life cannot compromise on this principle."17 [/quote] Bush was the ONLY one with a chance of winning the presidency that met this MUST of the Catholic Faith. NO ONE in the demo party that will be running for president will meet the above criteria. The above priorities are Catholic Prioriities. War is sometimes just and all criteria were met. Abortion is NEVER just. Same sex marriages and unions ARE NEVER just. These two reasons alone make it a sin to vote for anyone who supports them. It's time to get educated and think for yourself. I'm sure some of you here had lefto pinko commie teachers that had an influence on you... DO NOT base your opinion on UNANSWERED questions... find the answers, don't be so lazy... Listen to all sides and try to find transcripts or full videos to see for yourself. Bits and pieces of videos or transcripts are taken out of context repeatedly by the media and lefto commies. What happens when someone learns to think for themselves and starts to get the facts???? See for yourself... [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=22473&view=findpost&p=394659"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...ndpost&p=394659[/url] Please don't be lazy, listen to all sides and get the facts... only listening to the media and the lefto wackos is like only listening to Jack Chick. God Bless, ironmonk
Snarf Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 You know, I wasn't impressed by those threads the FIRST time around. Of course, I'm not a devout follower of the Ironmonk School of Logic but from the outside it looks a lot like making claims endorsed only by media fringe groups, accusing anyone who doesn't take you seriously of "not thinking" or something like that, posting new threads with some combination of these claims and then promptly ignoring them once they've trainwrecked, then later pointing to those exact threads as proof of intellectual high ground. Bill O'Reilly, for instance, is hailed far and wide for being the knee-jerkiest of the conservative knee-jerks, and even he apologized (albeit as insincerely as you could hope for) on account of his WMD claims. Maybe he thought "integrity" was an issue. My main beef with the Ironmonk approach is that when claiming that anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't thinking, you lead by example with a mental process saying "I think I'll ignore this hole in my thinking" or "I think this contradictory evidence to my claims doesn't merit a response, because, uhh... HERE'S A LINK TO SOMETHING ELSE."
zwergel88 Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 I don't feel like posting a long-winded explaination of my political philosophy and I think you guys already know anyway. However, I will say this: I don't hate the man personally; that would be ridiculous. I do however hate almost everything he has done to this country, and almost everything he stands for. That's how I feel and I don't think that I should have to suffer the scorn of my peers for that view.
Mercy me Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' post='962158' date='Apr 26 2006, 07:35 PM'] To be fair, it is equally disturbing to hear people scream the virtues of Bush as if he were some uberpresident as it is to hear those who complain as if he were Satan's handmaid. The last major terrorist attack on America, Pearl Harbor, was far worse in the damage it did to the US, and Franklin D. Roosevelt took to action in a way that not only the whole world supported, but the whole world supported with the same enthusiasm he had put forth. FDR is an uber president. Bush is somewhere between mediocre to second rate.If you choose to speak about the pressures of the presidency, then I care to submit that those pressures have come with every age and to every president. I care to submit the names of JFK and Ronald Reagen, who had quite a fun time with the Cold War, a much more serious threat to the US than terrorists. God bless, Mikey [/quote] Point of information: When Pearl Harbor was attacked the whole rest of the world was already at war and we were the ones who were not at war. There had been considerable pressure on the US to get involved in WW2 but Roosevelt refused. WW1 had been a heavy burden on our country and we were still trying to be isolationist. "The rest of the world" supported the decission but they were either they were losing ex. France, UK, Russia or they were tired of us sending supplies to their enemies ie Germany, Japan, Italy. Citing FDRs ability to get other countries support is not good evidence. It in itself did not show strong leadership. Remember many Americans had already crossed the border to fight with the Canadian and British forces. My personal opinion is that it takes much more courage to stand for what you know is right when the rest of the world is not with you. Also , my opinion, I liked the rest of your post. Both JFK and Reagan did a great job in the Cold War.
Tarcisius Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 [quote] It still amazes me the lack of knowledge that people who say they hate him, have of him. Bush has done a great job. He was much better than Clinton. He is honest and has integrity. There were WMD's. The war was just according to the Catechism. Michael Moore totally lied in his movie. It should speak volumes to people who claim to be Catholic when the media and hollywood distorts the truth to the point of lying about Bush. [/quote] [mod]ad hominem[/mod]
ironmonk Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 [quote name='Tarcisius' post='962412' date='Apr 27 2006, 12:06 AM'] you are an idiot [/quote] Said the boy without any scripture, Church teachings, or Early Church Fathers to back his statement to the man with Scripture, Church teachings, and Early Church Father statements to back his statements. hmmmm... May God Bless you with wisdom.
Snarf Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 Speaking of which... you cherry-pick your news outlets, you cherry-pick your moral stances, you cherry-pick your use of Scripture, you cherry-pick your use of Church teachings, you cherry pick your Early Church Father statements... I guess you've got that consistency thing going for you.
jasJis Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 Wow. This is getting somewhere. Some may expect open mindedness or willingness to give a little so as to not be caught up in hatred. No possiblility that we can agree Clinton and Bush aren't complete imbeciles and evil in thought and deed? No possibility that we can agree Clinton and Bush aren't the personification of genious and vessels of good in every thought and deed? No possibility that they are both halfway decent men with human flaws trying to do the best they can, just disagreeing on what is best? Nah. That's not Black/White Catholicism. How can you be right unless everyone else is completely wrong?
Azriel Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 I agree. Did I say that out loud? Anyway - lets bring this back around to the topic and quit bashing each other.
cmotherofpirl Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' post='962512' date='Apr 27 2006, 06:52 AM'] Wow. This is getting somewhere. Some may expect open mindedness or willingness to give a little so as to not be caught up in hatred. No possiblility that we can agree Clinton and Bush aren't complete imbeciles and evil in thought and deed? No possibility that we can agree Clinton and Bush aren't the personification of genious and vessels of good in every thought and deed? No possibility that they are both halfway decent men with human flaws trying to do the best they can, just disagreeing on what is best? Nah. That's not Black/White Catholicism. How can you be right unless everyone else is completely wrong? [/quote] Yep.
indescribable Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 So where do we find this information in the real world? Most news outlets are biased, or atleast have a handful of biased reporters. NO one has a "no-spin" zone, no matter how you look at it. I listen to NPR, read actual news from Washington and around the world, and conclude that our president CONDONES going agaist world regulations, basic human rights, and common sense. why do we still have innocent farmers lying in gitmo? why are we abusing iraqis on their home turf? why are we above international law like that? oh, because of the patriot act we should be able to do anything to collect intelligence... sounds good.
ironmonk Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 [quote name='indescribable' post='963565' date='Apr 27 2006, 10:14 PM'] So where do we find this information in the real world? Most news outlets are biased, or atleast have a handful of biased reporters. [/quote] 1) You listen to both sides. 2) You look for which side is taking things out of context. 3) You find the transcripts or videos and read or watch them... not just the snippets, but the whole thing. 4) You look at many sources. 5) You apply critical thinking and common sense with the teachings of the Faith... one must know the faith well to be able to apply it... one must use proportional reasoning... 1) God 2) Human Life (specifically unborn babies and euthenasia) 3) Family - Father, Mother, and Children 4) Social Justice 5) Global Solidarity When I started paying attention and watching, I saw the the majority of the media outright lied. Ever since before Clinton was elected. The media and the dem's running for office had to lie because they do not have the truth or want the Truth. They are the enemy of every Catholic... they want to destroy the Church and corrupt Christ's flock. They are guided by evil... they are pawns of satan. Hedonism, greed, and lies... the fruits of the media and leftist dems. If you haven't read the bible a few times, studied the Catholic Faith in depth and really meditated on what you read then you might have a hard time apply the truth of God's Church to what really matters. If you haven't, a chapter a day is a great way to start. At least one chapter, a bible chapter is short, but meditate on what you read. Start with the New Testament, but it is also good to know the Old Testament as well. If you find something that interests you, then keep reading, the next day, read at least one chapter. [quote] NO one has a "no-spin" zone, no matter how you look at it. I listen to NPR, read actual news from Washington and around the world, and conclude that our president CONDONES going agaist world regulations, basic human rights, and common sense. [/quote] You would be wrong. NPR is liberal / humanist garbage on a super spin cycle. NPR spins so much they lie. No country or group of countries has authority over the USA. You have a lot to learn of morals and human rights. You should read the bible a few dozen times. We are to help those who CANNOT help themselves. More people were dying before the war than after it. Saddam was a monster like Hitler... He slaughtered innocent people. The Iraqi people want us there to help them get to where they can protect themselves. If you believe he go against human rights and common sense you have a lot to learn. I've seen and heard the media (especially NPR) take things out of context and warp what was said to the point of lying... The EXACT same way Jack Chick lies about the Catholic Church. They only tell you what they want you to hear that will get you to draw a wrong conclusion. You want to talk about unjust and human rights?! We have a right to know the facts and decide for ourselves. As I continued to watch and see first hand the lies, I could not believe that they are allowed to get away with it.... So I had to stop watching because I was furious everytime I watch the news or democrats because they were deciving so many people to get their way... they lied about any republican that was in the news... There are a few reps just as bad, but far fewer than the dems... and there are a few well meaning dems, but none at the national level. I started watching and checking again about 6 years ago. The dems and media have only gotten worse. [quote] why do we still have innocent farmers lying in gitmo? why are we abusing iraqis on their home turf? why are we above international law like that? oh, because of the patriot act we should be able to do anything to collect intelligence... sounds good. [/quote] You have no basis to think innocent farmers are in gitmo. We are not abusing iraqi's. There might be a hand full of soldiers doing some kind of abuse but to say we are abusing them is like saying all police are crooked and don't call them when you need help. Why would you think they want us there if that was really happening?! There is no authority for "International law". The UN is an evil organization. They force abortions on women in countries they "help" and they experiment on innocents in third world countries. Don't be a media zombie, please, learn to think and evaluate your sources. People who support the killing of innocent babies and/or same sex marriages WILL NOT think anything is wrong with lying... Nothing they say can be trusted. Nothing... Everytime I have seen them talk they lie in one way, shape, or form. This is where common sense comes into play... there are a lot of people who lie, those who see nothing wrong with killing the unborn they will lie... it is a serious disordered moral sense they have, if you can even call it a "moral" sense... they are senseless. Think about the sins and then weigh them against each other... Killing is worse than lying... someone who lies might be against killing the innocent, but someone who kills or supports the killing of the innocent will have no problem with lying because they believe everyone can make their own choice and right/wrong are simply points of view that are ok to change - as long as you agree with them. Remember, news is about sensaltionalism and the left like to stir hate because it works, it worked for Hitler and it works for the left, at least for the people who do not look for themselves... they want you to watch and read their news. National and many local journalists are rarely about facts anymore, they are about getting the by line... they are about meeting their personal agenda or their editors... they are about keeping you in a state of fear so you will depend on them... it's called job security without integrity. God Bless, ironmonk
indescribable Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 the actual reports from gitmo state, albeit reluctantly, the origins of its prisoners (this comes after the UN asked for it many times), and in a few cases, the accounts of the prisoners lives. i don't think they can make that up. or i don't think they'd want to. so those were actually released, you can view them on the internet wherever you'd like. i got it off of a link off of the washington post. i know that isn't the most conservative of programs, but i like it. i suppose the UN isn't as great as it could be. but i think something needs to be there to try to preserve some semblence of global unity. they're lilly livered when it comes to action at times, but they do good works too. i've been considering getting into their relief program for children after college. well i've heard over atleast 5-6 news sites today about how we're being investigated in europe becuz of our black sites. now that's ignorance if you dont' believe those exist. or if one could think that we don't employ even more illegal tactics there. we've been lying to the international community. we said we wouldn't torture people. and we are. and that's not a big deal to the government. and who does it help if they go back to iraq with a new hatred? why does everything have to be told in lies? a liberal isn't the devil, or its accomplice. i think that bill o reilley is much more annoying than anyone on CNN. his ideas are offensive, as is his attitude. or... the one my father makes me listen too... the one that said "if there weren't black people, there wouldn't be as much crime." he wasn't such of a great guy sometimes, advocating assasination. oh and haven't other repubs called for that too? of hugo chavez? what i don't get really, is how repubs are soooo much better than dems. they believe it's okay to kill a fully formed, fully functional (and sometimes not functional) human being. some of those people are innocent too; either actually or mentally innocent of their crime. that's sad to me. to think that in my president's home state, murder int he public eye is commonplace and accepted because it's the will of the government. i can't stand for that at all. they can try to lie and say it's okay too, but shouldn't we know from the Bible that it isn't?
indescribable Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 i just found this quote, and it made me happy and think God is, even though the whole world deny him. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self-sustained. -Mohandas Gandhi now he was a great man. also had quotes describing the ultimate sacrafice- giving yourself up while being innocent. most universal truths travel. its encouraging to me. oh and i saw on a conservative site a link to a book that was completey untrue about how Islam is a terribly violent religion and how terrible it is. Then another link to a site that had a shirt that said "celebrate diversity" with many different guns displayed.
Recommended Posts