Physical Needs in Religious Life

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

One of the Poor Clare Colettines in Rockford sought enterence into to the Poor Clares in Ohio (Not sure where...) but was declined because of a health condition, but she entered the Poor Clare Colettines in Rockford, and her medical condition went away! God directs us to where He wants us.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Gemma' post='964181' date='Apr 28 2006, 12:57 PM']
That can be summed up in one word: virginity.

Those who have not been "touched" do not "crave" the physical, and therefore are less tempted to sins of the flesh.

Ironic. Most of those who take this attitude follow the Rule of St. Augustine. He's one of the greatest penitents of all time.
[/quote]

Sounds good in theory, but for for many women, an emotional attachment is much more important than any physical relationship, and much harder to deal with if lost.
So these orders would automatically refuse widows as well?

[Gemma]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='964849' date='Apr 29 2006, 05:53 AM']
Sounds good in theory, but for for many women, an emotional attachment is much more important than any physical relationship, and much harder to deal with if lost.
So these orders would automatically refuse widows as well?
[/quote]

The nuns have told me that they will take a penitent IF SHE IS MENTALLY STABLE. This also alludes to what I read while working with annulments--a nymphomaniac cannot be a wife because of how her brain works. She would also be disqualified from the religious life (more than likely).

I am aware that for a woman, the emotional attachment is more important--and for the man, it's the physical. I keep wanting to tell hedonists that they're being so totally foolish--the man thinks the girl's in love because she "performs." The woman thinks she's got the man hooked for the same reason. He gets bored with her "performance" and looks elsewhere. She's crushed emotionally. Yada, yada, yada. It's hard to witness to them, too.

One discerner--an annulee--I worked with was having to deal with her emotions--and the physical as well.

The Passionists of Whitesville used to have a brochure which asked a lot of questions. One of those was "How well can you deal with your sexual desires?" The Sacramentines even said in a public newspaper that they discussed such things--as it was part of acknowledging what God had given them, and their freedom to give it up for the sake of the Kingdom.

I think it all boils down to this: particular orders considering individual cases. Every case is dealt with individually. This leaves the discerner with a very long row to hoe--having to go knocking on lots of doors. This is why Nun Runs are so important. Sometimes you can tell if you're supposed to be there just by walking in the front door. At other times you know you're NOT supposed to be there the same way.

Widows are usually welcome in most orders, except for those who place such a high importance on the "v" word. (Like the Nashville Dominicans). I know of one annulee who tried their way of life, and her name was given her as a punishment for her previous life. She left before her final profession, and is extremely bitter about the experience. I know other women have applied there, also, but they won't take annulees, penitents, or widows. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

Please don't get me wrong. The Nashville Dominicans and I have enjoyed a good relationship. I'm just stating what I've observed in the last 16 years of knowing them.

I'll stop here.

Blessings,
Gemma

[cmotherofpirl]

If an order will take a widow, there seems no reason for them not to take someone whose marriage was annulled.

[Gemma]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='965175' date='Apr 29 2006, 11:54 AM']
If an order will take a widow, there seems no reason for them not to take someone whose marriage was annulled.
[/quote]

You'd think so, but some orders are kinda strange on the subject. Usually archaic ideas re: annulments.

Which is one reason why, in our SOLC Foundations, we're sort of like Mother Seton, who took everyone else's rejects. (That reminds me, I need to watch "A Time For Miracles" again). I'm a very accepting person just in real life in general, and I take the attitude that a vocation is between God and the soul. If someone is drawn to our communities, I start discerning with them. Amazingly, I've not had to tell anyone to leave, they've left on their own.

Some vocation directors are "green" for lack of a better term. The aforementioned annulee-discerner had worked with one VD for about a year, and then the latter got reassigned. The one who took over for her was as green as they could get. I wouldnt've said some of the stuff she said. The discerner wrote a heart-broken note to the former VD, who wrote back saying she'd have to pray over the response, which, when it came, said in very gentle words that the present VD was "green."

I've given the orders the advice of putting their most charismatic young sister on the "front line" of vocations work, with an older, more seasoned sister as her partner. Have they taken my advice? Dunno.

Blessings,
Gemma

[sanctafamilia]

Note about Benedictines of Jesus Crucified: THEY DO NOT EVEN WANT TO LOOK AT PEOPLE WITH CEREBRAL PALSY. Pray for their enlightenment. They assume we are all the same and have psychological issues, etc. It's really sad. Sisters of the Lamb of God take sisters with physical disabilities, but there is no guarentee of being allowed to wear a veil.

Also, any one read [i]Introduction to a Devout Life?[/i] I have, but I don't understand how serious to take the idea of performing all of the excercizes (morning, evening, annual, etc.) HELP!

[alicemary]

I am really surprised those Benedictines will not accept those with CP. Seems strange that they would not. A disability is a disability. Wow, it is so difficult sometimes, but I guess that is the cross we must bear. Never give up your search.
what do you mean by you might not get to wear a veil as a sister of the Lamb of God?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Sanctafamilia, write a courteous letter to the Benedictines of Jesus Crucified explaining how CP differs from person to person. I spend a lot of my time correcting misconceptions about my own disabilities (many people think of 'Rainman' as soon as they hear the word autism) and I think this work is vitally important.

I'm a little nervous about disclosing my dyspraxia to the Carmelites. I think dyspraxia will cause more problems than the autistic spectrum disorder, at least in a cloistered environment. I have special tools to help me cope and I know how to live with this, but I'm frightened that the sisters may not listen. I've decided to speak to them about it only when I'm in the monastery for my live-in. That way they will have to let me stay for my allotted two weeks and they will be able to see that I can manage, given the things I need.

[-I---Love]

this is all really enlightening...keep talking!!!

[TeresaAvila]

I agree, very enligtening, and to note, I understand some disorders/disabilities probably could not be accepted in religious life or certain communities (like cloistered or some missions) but there are also degrees to disabilities as others have talked about Cerebral Palsy, My sister has CP (although she's not considering religious life) but she went through alot of extensive surgeries in her childhood and at one time she had alot of difficult and could hardly walk, but now thanks be to god for all the good doctors, she has just a slight limp and only thing is she can't run as fast as others, but other than that she can do just about anything and her mind is haha often times sharper than mine, so I think orders should look at the individual case, as for annulments again I think that should be an individual thing, perhaps those that have been married and know the pleasures of the flesh vs. those of us who are virgins, make an even great sacrifice by giving their struggles to our lord, of course if one truly has a mental illness that causes problems with sexuality, then that needs to certainly be considered, but as My sisters often say "You don't know the inside, only god knows for sure, so we give them a try" and they often will give a person a serious time of discernment and/or try the observer program and if ti's not a true call god will reveal it in some way.

God Bless You!

[quote name='-I---Love' post='1173885' date='Jan 23 2007, 08:16 AM']
this is all really enlightening...keep talking!!!
[/quote]

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='PCPA2Be's Mom' post='963814' date='Apr 28 2006, 01:21 AM']
First Denise was required to have health insurance for 1 year to cover any medical issue that might occur during that first year. After that, the community would cover anything that came up.

Denise was required to have a complete physical and a long questionaire was to be completed by her physician including psych. evaluation.
[/quote]

Just a side note here, which may have already been addressed. These regulations are applied by the PCPA community in Portsmouth, according to Mrs. Deb (HisChild's mom). However, these are not the regulations in all PCPA communities.

[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='964355' date='Apr 28 2006, 03:26 PM']
This is an interesting hypothesis. If what you say is true (and I'm not saying it isn't) why wouldn't orders just say that they only permit virgins rather than not admitting annulees? Afterall, it's not just those who have been married who are not virgins.
[/quote]

Answering my dad's question to some extent....

Some communities have the "privilege" of having a community which not only takes the vows, but also consecrates their virginity, and therefore cannot allow widows or women with annulled marriages. Other communities would only reject a non-virgin if she had been affected from her relationships in a way that would cause her to be unsuitable (or un[i]able[/i]) to live the vow of chastity, at least not yet. Some communities, however, do not even address this issue before accepting a candidate. So, as others have said, it [b]definitely[/b] depends on the community.

Edited January 23, 2007 by Totus Tuus

[VeniteAdoremus]

What I'm interested in is whether a community would allow me a longer-than-standard bed and things like that, because if I had to sleep in a "normal" bed I WILL be truly disabled within two years. People tend to think a longer bed is a luxury, because to them it is. To me, it's sheer necessity.

I guess I'll have to take this up with the vd of the communities I'm looking at (I already know the Carmelites DCJ don't make a problem of it... if only I were a Carmelite!)

Edited January 24, 2007 by VeniteAdoremus

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

[quote name='Gemma' post='964181' date='Apr 28 2006, 01:57 PM']
That can be summed up in one word: virginity.

Those who have not been "touched" do not "crave" the physical, and therefore are less tempted to sins of the flesh.

Ironic. Most of those who take this attitude follow the Rule of St. Augustine. He's one of the greatest penitents of all time.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]


Gemma, I'm sorry but I don't know where you got this explanation for those communities who don't except women with annulments. I've never heard of this! In reality it is more often the case that a woman who applies is not a virgin, not because of a marriage (or attempted marriage) but because of the way she lived before she "converted".

I don't know of any Dominican Monastery (which follow the rule of St. Augustine) that doesn't consider women with annulments. In fact, I believe most monastic/contemplative orders do.

HOWEVER, if a community is more cautious it is because there WAS an attempted marriage and there are deep wounds from this experience. This experience will "color" her discernment and her life with the community, which let me tell you, can sometimes feel like marrying 17 other people!

Dominicans have never made the consecration of virgins and have never put that much emphasis on this. The emphasis is on spiritual virginity.

Edited January 24, 2007 by Lil Red

[sanctafamilia]

Just to let you all know, I just spoke with a consecrated virgin and she said that a disability is never an impediment to that way of life. You do need to support yourself through Disability or some other means, but at least there is some hope out there for us if we discern that religious life isn't going to work for us.

[shortnun]

[quote][b]From Sr. Mary Catharine[/b]
Gemma, I'm sorry but I don't know where you got this explanation for those communities who don't except women with annulments. I've never heard of this! In reality it is more often the case that a woman who applies is not a virgin, not because of a marriage (or attempted marriage) but because of the way she lived before she "converted".

I don't know of any Dominican Monastery (which follow the rule of St. Augustine) that doesn't consider women with annulments. In fact, I believe most monastic/contemplative orders do.

HOWEVER, if a community is more cautious it is because there WAS an attempted marriage and there are deep wounds from this experience. This experience will "color" her discernment and her life with the community, which let me tell you, can sometimes feel like marrying 17 other people!

Dominicans have never made the consecration of virgins and have never put that much emphasis on this. The emphasis is on spiritual virginity.[/quote]
I have a friend who was discerning cloistered life. She was married and has a child. She has had an annullment for the past two years. One community seemed to imply (I don't have a direct quote from her or the larger context in which the conversation took place), that even though her child was no longer a legal dependant, and her marriage was annulled, she would still not be accepted on the grounds that she was not a physical (genital) virgin. I do not want to judge this community, but I do know that my friend took this news as harsh and painful to absorb.

So, bottom line: There's [u]way[/u] more to this story than I know (and more than what my friend experienced in her conversation with a representative of this community). But it does leave me reflecting about how religious life calls us to live a life of "virginity" that is all-encompassing, and not just about our sexuality availability.

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1174769' date='Jan 24 2007, 01:27 PM']
So, bottom line: There's [u]way[/u] more to this story than I know (and more than what my friend experienced in her conversation with a representative of this community). But it does leave me reflecting about how religious life calls us to live a life of "virginity" that is all-encompassing, and not just about our sexuality availability.
[/quote]

I'm sorry your friend has this experience! We don't consider women who have children because we feel that a mother is always a mother and her children should not be deprived of her in their lives. We had experience of having sisters who had been married and had children and the children always found it difficult that mom couldn't be home for weddings, baptisms, baby sitting, etc. This is just our experience. There ARE many holy, happy, moms who are sisters/nuns out there. Again,each community needs to discern for themselves.

We have to be careful not to confuse chastity with virginity nor underestimate the value of virginity as an objectively "higher good". We also have to be careful not to confuse virginity with religious vows. Not easy.

First, all, no matter what their state in life are called to be chaste. Second, physical virginity in and of itself is simply the absence of sexual intercourse. However, virginity for the SAKE OF THE KINGDOM or for God alone is a higher good than marriage because it's end is God alone. Virginity is a sign of life in heaven where there will be no marriage or giving in marriage.

Sins against chastity and virginity are in the order of temperance and so St. Thomas doesn't get too excited about them. Sins against charity and justice are more serious.

One can lose physical virginity but not lose that virginity of the spirit which is more important. Conversely, one can be a physical virgin and give oneself to the things of the world that take us from God.

The loss of physical virginity through sexual intercourse does have an ontological effect on a woman (in her being). She has given herself to someone in a temporary way and we woman are made to give ourselves to another in fidelity. It is often difficult for a woman, even after she has been forgiven by God to not still feel guilty. Some of this guilt can be healthy but the important thing is to move on and see this as a source of experiencing God's merciful love. How can we truly experience God's loving kindness and forgiveness if we have nothing of which to be forgiven? This experience can be an entryway for a woman to more totally give herself to God because she has experienced her weakness and need for Him to do all things for her. So, it can be a source of true joy.

Virginity is an beautiful gift of grace, no doubt about it but it's got to kept in it's proper place. In religious life it is OBEDIENCE that is more important. In living obedience we are configured and conformed to Christ's Redemptive Love. We become one with our Spouse in saving work. We become like Him in the most perfect way possible because he was obedient to the Father. "I come to do your will, O God".

The Vatican II constitution on religious life, unfortunately changed the enumeration of the vows to Chastity, poverty and obedience whereas we Dominicans, along with the ancient orders say Obedience, poverty and chastity. In fact we only profess obedience because it is obedience to a whole way of life according to our constitutions. Included in this is the vows of obedience, poverty and chastity.

I hope this helps. I'm sorry I went on for so long! You can see that my classes are often long winded!

God bless you!