Everyone is converting!

[Balthazor]

Guys a I just need a little reassurance.
So far two of my cousins have converted from Catholicism to Luthernism. Then I found out a Catholic friend just converted also.....

ARG!

I am so hurt.

All of these Converts are men, they all converted through marriage, and none of them were real church goers before meeting their Luthern Wives. The wives are nice girls and I like them....but I am so dissapointed. I do not really know what to do about this. Should I be happy because now they are at least going? Or should I be a little dissapointed because their faith was not that important to them in the first place and they had absolutley no scruples about leaving the one true church....the Eucharist, ya knw Body Blood, SOul and Divintiy of Christ?

I am happy they are going for sure......but wanting the best for them I want them to be Catholic.

Someone give me advice as to how to approach this.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

For most people, it's all about the politics.

My friend Jason converted from Catholicism. He used to go to St. Thomas Acadamy, but, from his point of view, he saw Catholics as being fake...He saw no truth, because I guess of all the rules.

His only belief that if you believe in God you are saved.

As he said, he is one of the rare Catholics he knows that "sticks" to the Church's teachings, but it kills to know that he converted.

He is no non-denominational.

I can't even further more describe, but, he is a great guy, but, it's kind of depressing.

[thessalonian]

[quote]All of these Converts are men, they all converted through marriage, and none of them were real church goers before meeting their Luthern Wives.[/quote]

Therein lies the problem They have left themselves open to be decieved. Be saddened for it is truly sad. They have denied the Eucharist which they have had the grace to come to if they had accepted that grace. Yes, it is better that they are going to Church as Lutherans but only perhaps as a matter of them coming to some understandings of Christ whom they did not know, that may lead them back to the Church. I cannot say what their destiny is as Lutherans but I do not belileve that they are on a good path. PRAY! Also be bold but not arguementative in trying to bring them back in to the Church.
To be in any way happy for them is indifferentism.

God bless

Edited May 1, 2006 by thessalonian

[sweetpea316]

Is there any way I can talk to them? I'm coming from the other direction.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

Umm...I don't know, he is pretty set ground.

I went to Winona 2 weeks ago and I visited him and we went for a walk around the lake. We had a long talk about religion and I don't think he will convert any time soon.

[Jaime]

The crazy thing about God is that he's really really big. He's so big that it can make your head hurt. Sometimes it takes a lifetime journey to discover the best path. Sometimes we get lucky and trip over it early. Sometimes we get distracted by other things, like saaaaaay.... women.


But the nice thing about God being really really big is that he has the ability to gently call us back. Sometimes he uses friends, sometimes burning bushes, sometimes its a bus sign. But he's always giving the nudge.

I know you're frustrated Balth but all your love of the Church will always be your best and most compelling argument for those you care about.

If you love them and you show them your love for the Church, they will eventually come to the table. Take heart hon, the flame isn't just a nifty avatar!

[thessalonian]

hot stuff,

The one thing I don't like about your post is while in some sense we need to have a spirit of detachment in these matters, trusting in God, also we need to have genuine concern for these people, which motivates us to deep prayer for them. To leave the Church is a grave matter no doudt and you have to admit that many leave the Church and go to the grave without returning. Oh, that someone who truly understood the gravity of their actions and had true concern for the state of their soul, would have prayed ferverently for them! They have had grace available to them in the Eucharist and the other sacraments. Many have neglected confession, sapping grace from their werried soul. No this is a grave matter and some distress is indeed justified, while trusting in the Lord to call them back and lead us to the words to help in that call.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='966835' date='May 1 2006, 09:42 AM']The crazy thing about God is that he's really really big. He's so big that it can make your head hurt. Sometimes it takes a lifetime journey to discover the best path. Sometimes we get lucky and trip over it early. Sometimes we get distracted by other things, like saaaaaay.... women.
But the nice thing about God being really really big is that he has the ability to gently call us back. Sometimes he uses friends, sometimes burning bushes, sometimes its a bus sign. But he's always giving the nudge.

I know you're frustrated Balth but all your love of the Church will always be your best and most compelling argument for those you care about.

If you love them and you show them your love for the Church, they will eventually come to the table. Take heart hon, the flame isn't just a nifty avatar![/quote]a great post! : thank you!

[Jaime]

Thess

Yes of course its a grave matter. But its also a done matter. If they've left, then what you read as detachment is what is left. And while it can be reasonably argued that this is the biggest mistake of their lives, free will must be honored. That's not up to me. God's setting the example there.


We've all had friends who've left the Church. We're all held responsible because the primary reason anyone leaves is bad catechesis. But while my friends know that I don't agree with their actions, they also know that I love them. And that gives me ample opportunity to be the Church's example in their lives.

Others (and yourself) may disagree with my take and that's their right.

[Balthazor]

I am disgusted with them really.
I hate to say it....but disgusted is the word.

Obviously Catholicism was never that important to them.

*sigh*

[Jaime]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='966865' date='May 1 2006, 10:04 AM']
I am disgusted with them really.
I hate to say it....but disgusted is the word.

Obviously Catholicism was never that important to them.

*sigh*
[/quote]

Then the question is do you think God is disgusted with them?

[Balthazor]

I do not think God is disgusted with them, I think He is frustrated.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='966841' date='May 1 2006, 07:49 AM']
hot stuff,

The one thing I don't like about your post is while in some sense we need to have a spirit of detachment in these matters, trusting in God, also we need to have genuine concern for these people, which motivates us to deep prayer for them. To leave the Church is a grave matter no doudt and you have to admit that many leave the Church and go to the grave without returning. Oh, that someone who truly understood the gravity of their actions and had true concern for the state of their soul, would have prayed ferverently for them! They have had grace available to them in the Eucharist and the other sacraments. Many have neglected confession, sapping grace from their werried soul. No this is a grave matter and some distress is indeed justified, while trusting in the Lord to call them back and lead us to the words to help in that call.
[/quote]

Thess,

What would you do in this situation? I really want to know, because I have relatives and friends that have converted as well. The fact that they were not all that religious before and suddenly they become Jesus freaks through being a Lutheran, per se. What approach would you take other than just praying for them?

[Balthazor]

HEY!!!!!
NO Fighting on my thread!!!!!!


Stop it!

What am I to do?

I would really like to take them aside and ask them if they know what they left. I really do not think they have any clue.
The girls are really nice girls.....but I do not think they would ever convert.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='966875' date='May 1 2006, 10:08 AM']
I do not think God is disgusted with them, I think He is frustrated.
[/quote]

Well in that case, if we look at it objectively, there are a great many of us in the same boat. I'm certain that I frustrate God on many occasions.



The Church is the fullest example of love here on earth. There is no better route. And you are a part of that Church. They haven't figured that out yet but your example of love to your wayward friends is Christ's work on earth.

But I always try to keep in mind that (probably because I'm a dork) I may not be the sole instrument for bringing people I care about to the Church. I have to remind myself that all I can do is love to the best of my ability. (And of course that includes prayer) But there is every possibility that I'm only one part of the picture. That as important as these people are to me, they are more important to Christ. So he could very well have laid out several other parts of the picture. I trust in that.


This is in no way a passive response Balthazor. There is nothing more proactive.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='966835' date='May 1 2006, 12:42 PM']
The crazy thing about God is that he's really really big. He's so big that it can make your head hurt. Sometimes it takes a lifetime journey to discover the best path. Sometimes we get lucky and trip over it early. Sometimes we get distracted by other things, like saaaaaay.... women.

[/quote]

I agree. Left the Catholic Church when I was 6 or 7 with my family when my mom married a Lutheran and after the diocese sinned greviously against her. Then I became a Baptist (followed the cute girls, married one), and then I came home. I think if I was never a Baptist, I would have never found phatmass, I would have been content being in a Lutheran setting, both liturgical and alot like mass, and would have seen no reason to leave.

There is a difference between greiving over people who don't share in our faith and experience our joy, because we want the same hope for them that we have for ourselves, and actually judging them for their life decisions to which we cannot know the interior state of their heart and soul.

[Jaime]

Adam I couldn't disagree with you more

Its i before e in grieving


Other than that you're spot on!!

[thessalonian]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='966861' date='May 1 2006, 10:03 AM']
Thess

Yes of course its a grave matter. But its also a done matter. If they've left, then what you read as detachment is what is left. And while it can be reasonably argued that this is the biggest mistake of their lives, free will must be honored. That's not up to me. God's setting the example there.
We've all had friends who've left the Church. We're all held responsible because the primary reason anyone leaves is bad catechesis. But while my friends know that I don't agree with their actions, they also know that I love them. And that gives me ample opportunity to be the Church's example in their lives.

Others (and yourself) may disagree with my take and that's their right.
[/quote]

By all means be an example. By all means love them. It does no good to turn your back on them. If that is your point I agree. I just don't want people to become so cavalier about this as to say "let them be". I deal with a whole parish full of Catholics who have been told don't worry about your kids becoming protestant and I have to tell you they have become so indifferentized that I don't even think they pray for them. They feel they are okay where they are at. This is the perspective I am coming from. We need to gently help lead them back, through our prayers, words, and exmple. Yes, God is big and so we don't need to take on the whole load and therin for me comes the detachment. I don't think we disagree perhaps. I just want to focus from a little different angle and I am afraid of people becoming indifferentist in all of this. It is the same thing that I have seen happening many times when familes are confronted with a gay child. They start to think the Church is wrong and homosexuality is okay in order to find a detachment that is a false detachment and allows them to mentally handle the issue that their son or daughter has left the Church or is living a gay lifestyle. I'm not looking for a debate. Just presenting a perspective that I think needs to be heard these days. Leaving the Church is serious business.

Blessings

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='966890' date='May 1 2006, 08:15 AM']
HEY!!!!!
NO Fighting on my thread!!!!!!
Stop it!

What am I to do?

I would really like to take them aside and ask them if they know what they left. I really do not think they have any clue.
The s are really nice s.....but I do not think they would ever convert.
[/quote]

Who is fighting? I am just really up-in-arms just like you in figuring out what to do for them. I mean should I sit them down and demistify catholicism for them or should I systematlically evanglize to them using the CCC.

[jasJis]

I think they may have more of a clue of why and what they left then you think. It's just not what you think it is.

Once one establishes a relationship with God and Grace, you want to live it. Catholic theology is pretty realistic about falling and needing Grace, but Catholic practice is either a very lax attitude where anything goes, or a real harsh and condemning attitude that shuts you out from the Sacraments.

I taught Confirmation classes for teens for years, including way back when phatmass was starting up. I tried to get a few teens interested here, but they pretty much didn't like it because of the pervasive more Catholic than thou feeling.

Catholicism in practice seems to know the rules so you can know how close you can dance to the edge. Face it, some people aren't real, real good, or real, real, bad and are just inbetween. Most don't know the letter of theology and all the nuances and stuff. The kids I know, at a number of different parishes, felt that the imperfect parish they attended, where handholding has been the norm for a decade, was considered WRONG, misleading, not-Catholic, improper, etc., etc. Definitely not pleasant.

Lot's of them do not see the Catholic Church practicing what it preaches. Some have left for sincere, but limited, Christianity in Prot Churches as apposed to the fuller, but insincere, Catholic Church. I'm on the cusp of doing that myself. Knowimg more about what the Church REALLY teaches (at least in my not always humble opinion) has me teetering on the edge. It's not a decision to walk away from the Eucharist, it's walking away from insincere hypocrasy.