Darfur and Iran and Oil

[jasJis]

I've got a question for all those who feel the US is just a bunch of egomaniacs and the real unselfish and unbiased World Athority is the UN.

Why has the UN done nothing been in Sudan and Darfur for years while an average of 7,500 people die a month (based on 180,00 in 2 years) compared to how many Iraqi's and US troops die?

What can the UN do about Iran?

What can the UN do about OPEC (the Arab oil conglomerate that raise prices according to how the feel and the real source of high fuel prices) because of it's pricing polices that may energy so expensive that helps keep 3rd world countries in poverty and underdeveloped?

[jasJis]

bump-itis just in case these topics that may need some Catholic moral attention really may be important to 'Catholic' Americans and we'll get some real thought.

Or we can wait until a Demo or Rebli politician takes a stance after another 180,000 die in Sudan or Iran throws the UN out and enriches a ton of uranium and we can then FINALLY jump on the hate-bashing wagon.

[jasJis]

[quote]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) Three Iraqi police commandos kidnapped Friday were found shot to death south of Baghdad on Monday, and six other bodies were discovered in various locations in the capital, Iraqi police said.

The police commandos were dragged from a car as they drove to work Friday in Khan al-Mahawil, south of Baghdad, police said.

They were found Monday shot to death, their bodies lying in an irrigation canal in the same town, police said.

The six bodies found in Baghdad were apparent victims of the sectarian violence that has claimed at least 94 lives since the beginning of May, Iraqi police said.

The bodies, like the 43 bodies found in the capital over the weekend, had gunshot wounds to the head and showed signs of torture, police said. [/quote]Hmmm. And I thought it was the US that was doing all the horrid immoral things in Abu-Graib and Guantanamo Bay. I wonder where the US has dumped the 40+ bodies that they must have tortured and shot in the head in the last month. Or is there a double standard? Or is there an unequal application of moral principle that is the foundation of the current practiced Catholicism and there really isn't anything to learn from current events that may be applicable to other impending problems. Good thing a treaty was signed in Sudan. That's not a problem now, is it?

[dUSt]

Your comments are thought provoking.

[zwergel88]

I'm really into this stuff, in fact I was at the protest with George Clooney to call for an end to genocide. However, I''m about to eat some noodles so I will answer the questions you pose later.

[Didacus]

[quote][size=4][b]DISCLAIMER[/b][/size]


None of what follows is not aimed to insult americans or the US but aims to reflect rather a reality of international situation. It is conceided from the start that;

1. What follows is a generalization and does not reflect individual's views, actions or opinions.

2. What follows is at best the opinion of the author, and though the facts have been proven to the author's satisfaction either by personal research or experience they remain nonetheless an expression of an opinion.

I apologize in advance if the content offends anyone here on phatmass - however, I personally feel that what follows explains many 'truths' that replies to the initial posts of this thread.[/quote]





A lot of the 'egomaniacal' hype is due to the way americans conduct themselves in other countries, and their respective business relations.

The soft-wood lumber dispute is one of them; the US' own courts ruled it illegal and yet only 80% of the duties will be released and that after years of damaging the industry in Canada. I read an article a few months back that described well how the US sees itself as a 'modern empire' with their 'taxation methodology' turning around its influence with the US dollar and questionable dealings of the sort.


Another example of Americans flaunting themselves; when visiting Germany Americans where quoted as refering to the German currency as 'funny-money' meaning its worthless.
American tourists constantly refer to Canada as 'an American colony' and to Canadiens as 'basically American but just not as good as the real thing'. My friend works at a call center, and often get calls from americans who claim things the like of 'I'm a US citizen so you better do as I say." or other comments alluding to other nations 'duty to serve the self-proclaimed rulers of the world'.

Want an example closer to home? Someone posted here on phatmass on an occasion or two that the 'president is essentially the ruler of the free-world' - Sorry, not my ruler, never was, don't reckon he ever will be (even if they breaks my door down and try and force me to say it), and yet I am just as free as any american if not more-so.

Do you want me to start on the Vietnam war? How about American campaign slogans in the mid-19th century calling for Canada to concede their border under threat of war - just because the US wanted more land.

Remember the Nagano Olympics? The japanese television companies where sueing the US television companies because the US had bougt the sole rights and sold off their air time with the promise of a 'full Olympic coverage' - instead they provided full coverage of the US team and practically nothing else.


Another Olympian example;

Ben Johnson - guilty of steroids, everyone knew he was using them, has his gold medal taken away. (and rightfully so)
Carl Lewis - Guilty of steroids, everyone knew it back then, he even tested positive just like Ben Johnson AT THE OLYMPICS- he gets the gold from Ben, and not a single word thereafter.

This is an example of US 'fairness' with their dealings towards other countries.


The US and its citizens are riddle with this type of dual hypocrisi and
arrogance and then the US asks 'why don't they like us'? Why don't they support us when we declare a war or try and force a nation down one path or the other? Do you really, really, really need a reply to that?


There is more to the international distaste of the US than their military 'exploits'. For every example you give of the US being the 'good guys' I'll give three more convincing examples of the 'darker side' of the US.



As far as oil, Iran, Dafur and Iraq is concerned:

Read this and tell me with a straigth face that's its all about spreading freedom and democracy in the world.

[url="http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm"]http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm[/url]

[jasJis]

I can't believe you can post that article with a straight face. For one, look to see when it was written. Before WW-II and it was talking about WW-I. That there are some ulterior political motives, there is no doubt. That business executives make $$ at war, there is no doubt. But it's pure hysterical hyposthesis that claims they manipulate international politics solely for profit. If they are that powerful and intelligent, there are more efficient ways at making profit and creating monopolies. It's a hysterical an naive piece.

As far as Canada's perseption of the US, what do you want? You claim that the US acted totally high handed about softwoods. What about other resources that could be traded. The US is usually more open to to other countries goods then they are to us, which is why we have such a huge trade deficit. The facts don't support your claims. The US is not perfect and may be wrong w/ the softwood issue, but that doesn't mean our borders are closed to all foreign trade.

Talk about the VietNam war. Do a little history research of what was written in the early 60's. The US was cleaning up France's colonial mess. What colonies have the US taken by conquest? What part of Asia, India, Middle East, or Africa was an American colony. Oops. They're all European. Even Russia (the Soviet Socialst Republic) and China were built by conquest. Canada is a colony of the French and English who haven't shaken of their colonial subservience. Same general geography and natural resources of the US, and what have they done with it?

It's easy to bash the 'top dog'. Funny thing is, the US is built upon immigrants from all these other Nations that now dislike them. We're black, yellow, white and brown with all shapes of eyes and different hair textures.

Truly, it's easy to diminish the morality of the strongest because we all know might doesn't make right. But what about Sudan and Iran? When, who, and what is to be done? Is one of the lessons we should learn from Iraq is that the lone superpower should shoulder the burden because it's the only one that can focus will and power and the same time? The UN hasn't done anything for political reasons.

What is the justification of letting the slaughter go on for years in Sudan and other countries when you have the ability to stop it? Who in the world has the ability to stop it? What justification do they need? Moral justification? To protect it's own citizens? To protect it's economics? Or is it to inflict it's will simply because it can? Russia did that. Where did you think the CCCP (USSR) came from? China was not created from a common will to exist.

There are lessons to be learned without bashing the US. There is a world community. What should be done? Who can do it? Can a group of countries do it? Do the have the ability?

[Didacus]

War is the biggest business in human history. Nothing else will grant you the power over others and multiply your profit 0-20 folds. Nothing.

That piece is written by an American General and it won a pulitzer prize and the general in questioin (qualifications listed at start) was at a time considered for a nobel prize.

But of course, its all just histeria; right, ok you go with that.



Yes I will admit the US is subject to the 'Top-Dog' Syndrome which accentuates everything little 'wrong' they do. However my point is that many many americans 'attract' this despise upon themselves by constantly disrespecting people from other countries - and I am not talking about the big picture here, but the accumulation of all the little things done every day.


[quote]Well, eighteen years after, the world has less of democracy than it had then. Besides, what business is it of ours whether Russia or Germany or England or France or Italy or Austria live under democracies or monarchies? Whether they are Fascists or Communists? Our problem is to preserve our own democracy.[/quote]
WAR IS A RACKET, Smedley Darlington Butler



Softwood lumber dispute, meat trading, corn commerce; the list of 'illegal' trade disputes where I can easily argue the US being wrong keep pilling up - and all those examples are from the last 5 years alone.



Where was the US during the 1994 Rwanda genocide? Oh wait - no oil, no profit in Rwanda - the US swept it under the rug along with about 3 or 4 other genocides that happened in the last 25 years that the US doesn't care about. Why bother with Iraq and Iran when there is much much more death going around in other parts of the world?



What is to be done about those nations - for the first thing you shouldn't have sold them so many guns. They are left overs of the first world war and tools of the cold war and now the US, Europe and Russia have an uncontrollable beast at their door - go figure. He who lives by war, dies by war.


Vietnam, the US cleaning up the French's mess? What a laugh! True the French where handed their asses in Vietnam before the US, but the US did not accomplish anything more for Vietnam than the French did in fact they killed more people, made things worse and had no business being there. At the end of the day, even though they did not lose a single battle, the US still lost the war from the simple fact that they left without accomplishing their objectives and at a loss of considerable lives. And the truth is the US had just as big a hand as the French except theirs where behind closed doors - it was the cold war remember and the US was pulling the strings while the puppet was doing the work, when the puppet couldn't handle it anymore the puppet master had a try - and failed.

But you just stay with that 'we where cleaning someone else's mess' thing - ya that works good.

[i]They where Canadien soldiers who died in the Vietnam war by the way.[/i]






[quote]There are lessons to be learned without bashing the US. There is a world community. What should be done? Who can do it? Can a group of countries do it? Do the have the ability?[/quote]


Strange as it may seem, gun's And Roses I believe said it best;

[quote]Nobody can trust freedom when its not in your hands, 'cause everyone's fighting for their promised land.[/quote]





Now look Jas, I don't want to make all this into a big p***ing match. I told you that many americans are arrogant and selfish and flaunt it openly throughout their travels in the world and this is a major cause of the world's despise of the US. If your neighbor had a house that was twice your size with big dogs barking and knocked at your door to honk your nose every morning just to 'rub it in' would you have some resentement or is your neighbor right in honking your nose because 'might is right'?

I gave an honest reply to explain why so many people dislike the US; if you won't admit this perception, if you can't look in the mirror, don't blame me. Stay with the 'they have no reason to dislike us just because we honk their noses, tell them how high to put their fence, and won't return that power saw I borrowed last year because I'm good enough, smart enough and gosh darn people should like me.' thing - whatever gets you through the day thinking the US is rightcheous I guess.

[jasJis]

Didacus,
I don't think Americans are the best thing since sliced bread. I'm only second generation, my wife came here on a Green Card, tons of my extended family came here on Green Cards or are only 1st generation Americans or aren't even Citizens of the US. I'm not coming at it from a "Redneck Agenda".

The fact is, America is a SuperPower and has responsibilities. Bashing them or defending Americans in general is not constructive and not the primary issue. The US isn't the only Country that stood by and let Sudan and Rowanda happen. Do you know who Idi Amin is?

Your view on Viet Nam is warped. Why didn't the US have any reason to be there? To answer that, come up with some legitimate reasons why any Country could be there. Don't dismiss the reasons the US was there as being wrong because they are the US's reasons. Was the US the only Country that didn't go into Rowanda? What prevented other countries from going into Sudan? Let's be honest and consider some answers to those questions instead of just bashing the US.

There's the fact that Rowanda and Sudan are Sovreign Countries. At what point is it morally correct to go in there? How is that evaluated? The US and a few other countries felt that Iraq and Sadaam became a threat to the world stability becasue of his building up of the Military, the likelihood he was pursuing WMD, his thwarting the UN Weapon Inspectors, the suffering of the population under the Food for Oil sanctions. It could be argued it was the right thing to do, but at the wrong time? How much weight should be given to the world community with nations that have their own politcal agendas, their own national politcal circumstances? The US could sell a political motivation to it's populace. But as Christians, how do we look and consider the big moral picture? War is disordered, but is needed in some circumstances because of the disordered world. When it is intended to protect or free people, the evil of war is a secondary consequence. That's similar to a woman having a tubal ligation in order to save her life and the secondary consequence is the death of embryo in an entopic pregnancy. What are the moral motivations and conditions, given the circumstances?

If you want to stay Nationalistic, what should Canada do? What is it capable of, both militarily and politically? Does Canada have the moral athority to do something? What Country or group of Countries do? What international political organization can? Having a few very powerful countries is not new in world history, just the scale of effect. These are old lessons. What did or should we learn?

[Didacus]

Canada is the only nation in the world that took part in every UN mission since the UN was founded.



I did not want to 'bash' the US, only to explain where some of the resentement from other nations come from. My perceptions may be wrong I do admit, but they are common - now draw your conclusion.




Yes, the US is a superpower but still not what it used to be, and yes this intices responsibilities. Thee president remains 'not my leader', 'not the leader of the free world' and I don't know if I'd even have the guy over for supper on any given day of the week.




We can argue Vietnam till we're both blue in the face. The only reason the US went to Vietnam was to secure their 'democratic' empire by trying to force a small nation to accept democracy instead of communism. It was an international farce and puppet show played out at the expense of lives, including american ones. What do you think the reasons are?

Do you still think the North was trying to free the slaves?


Sadaam and Iraq was no more a threat to the world the average muslim nation - but they do have the unnofficial largest reserves of cheap oil in the world - and wouldn't you know it, the UK and the US companies control those now (out of the goodness of their hearts I'm sure).


Any nation can be posted as a threat, every nation IS a threat to some extent. Looking into the media and hype around terrorism, there is a growing number of views showing Canada as the preferred portal for terrorists into the US. We have nuclear capabilities, and heck quite frankly Canada never liked the US - are we next? Given an excuse or two and the US track record (how many times have they invaded Canada in the past?) I wouldn't put it past the US. Some 'experts' even started predicting it (the point being that it is starting to be discussed, and that's the first step towards action).



I used to be very patriotic, heck I almost joined the Canadien millitary back in my younger days. Now that I'm a little older, and much wiser my objective is that none of sons or daugters will ever fight in a war; not for Canada, not for the US, not for anyone (unless the Vatican proclaimed it a just war - the ONLY condition that would intice me to accept any such a fight).


Did you read through "War is a Racket' or just browse lightly - lessons learned 100 years ago are still valid today, don't dismiss it readily just because it talked about WWI.

[indescribable]

a UN Sudanese-translator was killed either yesterday or the day before.

things aren't getting that much better, even after a shaky peace agreement was reached - or forced.

a group at my school is holding a relief concert for darfur in the late part of june. i hope we raise a significant amount

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didacus' post='976073' date='May 9 2006, 08:36 AM']

We can argue Vietnam till we're both blue in the face. The only reason the US went to Vietnam was to secure their 'democratic' empire by trying to force a small nation to accept democracy instead of communism. It was an international farce and puppet show played out at the expense of lives, including american ones. What do you think the reasons are?
[/quote]
Yes, the old Lefty "party line" about Vietnam - that the U.S. were evil "imperial" aggressors making war on those poor Vietnamese people who wanted Communism.

Though this has become almost the "conventional wisdom" in the media - this perception is full of lies and betrays an ignorance of the nature of Communism and the geo-political situation at the time.
The U.S. was absolutely right to fight Ho Chi Minh's Communists in Vietnam - the only thing shameful about it was that we failed to finish the job, and withdrew! (due in large part to pressure from the Left).

Why was the U.S. fighting in that war? In order to combat the further spread of the Soviet-based Communist empire - the most evil and murderous system in the history of the world, which had plans for complete world domination, and had at this time already conquered alsmost half the world. Ho Chi Minh was not a nice peaceful person favored by most of the Vietnamese people, but a brutal, murdereous dictator who was taking over the country by violent conquest, and he was backed by the Soviets and Red China, who were intent on spreading Communism throughout the world.
During the Cold War, the U.S. was the only free country with the power and might to hold global Communism in check.
Nowadays, after the fall of the Soviet Union, it is hard to appreciate the threat Communism presented to the world. Remember, that after WWII, half of Europe fell to Communist agression.
Many at this time, even felt that Communist world domination was inevitable.
The U.S. (which you deride as wanting to force a "democratic empire") was the world's last hope (in a political-military sense).
While you bash the U.S. now, and talk as though American-backed "democracy" and Communism are morally equivalent systems (how dare we try to "force" them to accept Democracy rather than Communism!), I think you need to ask yourself, would you really want to live in a world in which Communism had prevailed, and the USSR was the world's dominant power? Would you prefer that to American "democratic imperialism"?
If you think so, you are seriously ignorant of history and the true nature and goals of Communism. I'd suggest you read Dr. Warren H. Carroll's [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/093188859X/sr=1-1/qid=1147231625/ref=sr_1_1/002-2323353-4496057?%5Fencoding=UTF8"]The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution[/url] to get educated on the history and nature of Communism.

The unfortunate prevalence of willfully ignorant pinko attitudes as such as yours is a large part of the reason why Canada is held in contempt by many Americans.

[Didacus]

Hey there Soc, You basically said everything I said except in different light and words. Vietnam was only a pissing match between the US and the Russia/China. Right or wrong - that's all it was.

I suppose your side is truthfull 100%, and there is no doubt that everything you said has nothing to do with propaganda. It was a very complex situation to say the least, and though the US had some reasons for being there, they also had strong reasons not to be there.




What I find most interesting in your post is that you show very well what I tried to point out originally in my first post:

[quote name='Socrates' post='977002' date='May 9 2006, 08:32 PM']
[snip]

The U.S. (which you deride as wanting to force a "democratic empire") was the world's last hope (in a political-military sense).

[snip]


During the Cold War, the U.S. was the only free country with the power and might to hold global Communism in check.

[/quote]

Typical 'party lines' from US citizens.



And then to boot;

[quote name='Socrates' post='977002' date='May 9 2006, 08:32 PM']
The unfortunate prevalence of willfully ignorant pinko attitudes as such as yours is a large part of the reason why Canada is held in contempt by many Americans.
[/quote]

Lovely. Would you want to rethink that a little?




I know I might have come a little strong. My community is getting destroyed from one of the US's 'good deals' and it is a difficult time around the community in general. It is very disheartening to lose your livelyhood, a piece of your history and your plans just because a few americans somewhere manipulated the system to make a buck - the American dream I guess. Congradulations to you all, you must be very proud and content with your democracy and your capitalism.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Didacus' post='977224' date='May 10 2006, 05:23 AM']
I know I might have come a little strong. My community is getting destroyed from one of the US's 'good deals' and it is a difficult time around the community in general. It is very disheartening to lose your livelyhood, a piece of your history and your plans just because a few americans somewhere manipulated the system to make a buck - the American dream I guess. Congradulations to you all, you must be very proud and content with your democracy and your capitalism.
[/quote]Canada isn't a capitalist economy and isn't a democracy? When did this happen?

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Didacus' post='977224' date='May 10 2006, 06:23 AM']
I know I might have come a little strong. My community is getting destroyed from one of the US's 'good deals' and it is a difficult time around the community in general. It is very disheartening to lose your livelyhood, a piece of your history and your plans just because a few americans somewhere manipulated the system to make a buck - the American dream I guess. Congradulations to you all, you must be very proud and content with your democracy and your capitalism.
[/quote]

US citizens are suffering from it too.
My dad had to go 300 miles to work at one time. Almost the entire community was unemployed. It was about to become a ghost town only no one could afford to move to a place where houses were four times to ten times as expensive.




I think the UN should be chucked out the window. The idea was great in the beginning but it is corrupt now. The point was to keep peace. Now it is to keep big powers happy, or at least the bigger power. No matter what.


Didacus, is it wrong for a nation to send military aid to a another nation's people to overthrow the government there, if the government is evil?

(Cuz, I bet if you asked the people living in tents, they'd appreciate the help)