Endorsing Sin, Even Venial Is Going Against Church Teachings

[AngelofJesus]

IM,

Do you see giving food and water to illegals as sinning?

[Socrates]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' post='970097' date='May 3 2006, 04:43 PM']
IM,

Do you see giving food and water to illegals as sinning?
[/quote]
This is not and never was what the law was about. (See the following article from the Catholic News Agency, which I had previously posted in another thread.)
[quote][b]Immigration bill does not criminalize assistance efforts, say legislators[/b]

Washington DC, Apr. 07, 2006 (CNA) - A group of legislators are striving to assure the U.S. Catholic bishops that a new and much criticized immigration reform bill “does not criminalize humanitarian assistance efforts … nor did it intend to.”

The bill, they wrote in an April 5th letter, is the “House's good-faith effort to bring human traffickers to justice” but it “will not be the final product on this issue.”

The letter was sent by House Judiciary Committee chairman F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr. (R-Wis.), House Homeland Security Committee chairman Peter King (R-N.Y.), and House International Relations chairman Henry Hyde (R-Ill.).

“We can assure you, just as under current law, religious organizations would not have to ‘card’ people at soup kitchens and homeless shelters under the House bill's anti-smuggling provisions,” they wrote.

“Prosecutors would no sooner prosecute good Samaritans for ‘assisting’ illegal immigrants to remain in the U.S. under the House bill than they would prosecute such persons for ‘encouraging’ illegal immigrants to remain in the U.S. under current law, which has existed for nearly 20 year,” they continued.

The three legislators said they supported H.R. 4437 in December because it would be a solid first step in preventing illegal immigration, helping law enforcement agents gain control of the borders, and re- establishing respect for immigration law.

They “wholeheartedly concur” with the bishops’ assessment that “human trafficking is a modern-day form of slavery,” they wrote.

However, the “current alien-smuggling laws are inadequate in the fight against these sophisticated coyotes and snakeheads who rape, rob, beat, and abandon their human ‘cargo,’ and also poison our communities through drug trafficking,” the legislators argued.

They said border-area U.S. Attorneys have asked for the tools in H.R. 4437 to aid them in their fight against alien smuggling.

The legislators promised to keep communication open with the bishops as Congress considers the issue. They also said they remain committed to reducing the penalty for illegal presence in the U.S. from a felony to a misdemeanor.

[url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6438"]http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6438[/url][/quote]

Mahoney and his liberal followers on here are merely using this law as an excuse to play politics by falsely claiming that it criminalizes giving food and water to those who need it.

This has all been dealt with before in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=50253"]this thread.[/url]

[cappie]

From Roberta Bondi's "Memories of God"

"What I read that day was an exhortation to those early monks not to criticize or judge one another, but rather, to treat one another with the gentleness of our heavenly Father, who especially loves the ones the world despises, and who is always so much more willing than human beings to make allowances for sin, because God alone understands our circumstances, the depths of our temptations, and the extent of our sufferings."

I love this quote. I love the realization that while [b]God certainly isn't endorsing sin, [/b]God is far more understanding of our struggles, pressures, failings and misdirection than most people are. And this is so easy to see isn't it? Someoen is well known, well respected... then a skeleton from a closet comes out and suddenly no one wants to talk to him or her, no one really trusts them anymore, and no one wants them in a visible role in the church. And we'll justify our response with all kinds of theological claims, but the God-honest truth is, we don't have the kind of compassion, understanding, acceptance and desire for intimacy that God does.

[jasJis]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' post='970097' date='May 3 2006, 04:43 PM']
IM,

Do you see giving food and water to illegals as sinning?[/quote]
AofJ,
I don't mean to be rude, but it's going to come off that way. Did you read his posts, or just skim them because you feel you have the gist of what he's saying?

[quote]The Catholic Church teaches that we are NOT allowed to do any evil that results in a greater good. ALL sin is evil.[/quote]

[quote]There is no need to sin any any situation. We should rather die than do the smallest sin... that is how serious sin is. It is a shame that so many people have lost their sense of sin.[/quote]

[quote]No one is talking about not feeding the hungry... We are talking about what is a sin and what is not. To break a just law is a sin, does not matter what kind of law it is. It is a federal offense to help illegal immigrants stay in America... this means we cannot give them a job, encourage them to stay in America, and give them a home to live in... [b]this does not mean we can't give them a place to sleep on their way back to where they came from, this does not mean that we cannot give them food when they are hungry during their journey home[/b]... Otherwise we break the law and therefore we sin.[/quote]I've often made comments to i-monk about HOW he presents things, but WHAT he's saying isn't usually the issue. Whether you like HOW he says things, please read WHAT he's saying. That's a good rule to follow before making a comment on what ANYONE has posted. READ the posts. Your comments would then be a contribution and welcome, even if you disagree.

[hierochloe]

What if one were to take the same issue and replace the term "immigrant" with "refugee"? What if it was against the laws of your country to take in Jews from Nazi Germany? What if, by forcing/encouraging deportation of an illegal immigrant, one effectively caused the loss of innocent life either by violence or starvation, both easily avoided by the illegal immigrant remaining and working in your country illegally, even indirectly? But our laws provide for refugees, you may say. Please keep reading. :

I would very willingly illegally immigrate into the US to work to feed my starving family and would not find any sin whatsoever in doing so. Indeed, to abstain from such a thing merely because it was against the law of man at the cost of my family would seem sinful. The law of God supercedes the law of man. Along these same lines, obviously, abortion remains a sin even though the law of man allows it, as does contraception. One could not use this logic resting on the law to justify strapping on a rubber or vacuuming a gravid uterus.

Likewise, I would find no sin in assisting such a person even if it enabled them to remain and work in the country illegally, since to do otherwise would indirectly inflict the very thing they are trying to escape. Kind of like giving someone a ride to the abortion clinic. You've enabled a murder. Would you willingly send someone to their doom because the law said it must be done?

Are all illegal immigrants suffering from a life or death situation? Obviously not. Are they all subject to laws and beaurocracy that are woefully inadequate in doing the right thing every time? Indeed. The Lord never said I must always contribute to that incompetency. When my brother is in need, I will assist, for there is the Lord - Ceaser and his rulebook can go to hell for all I care (take this in context - I'm not speaking of aiding brigands). Lord have mercy on my soul. But I don't believe it is sinful.

I don't think it's quite so cut and dry as classifying the delivery of aid to an illegal immigrant as sinful, even if its outcome serves to assist that illegal in remaining in the country, ie breaking the law. That would be quite a judgement to pass, since every situation is different.

I get the feeling there's an attempt to justify politics here with something that is too complex to fit into that square hole. Using the religious angle won't get this sort of legislation passed, nor make it right, obviously. While I respect the point of view, I still think it would be better to just make plain sense of it rather than paint a very broad brush of sin over the countering side of the issue.

[Azriel]

[quote name='cappie' post='970128' date='May 3 2006, 05:06 PM']
From Roberta Bondi's "Memories of God"

"What I read that day was an exhortation to those early monks not to criticize or judge one another, but rather, to treat one another with the gentleness of our heavenly Father, who especially loves the ones the world despises, and who is always so much more willing than human beings to make allowances for sin, because God alone understands our circumstances, the depths of our temptations, and the extent of our sufferings."

I love this quote. I love the realization that while [b]God certainly isn't endorsing sin, [/b]God is far more understanding of our struggles, pressures, failings and misdirection than most people are. And this is so easy to see isn't it? Someoen is well known, well respected... then a skeleton from a closet comes out and suddenly no one wants to talk to him or her, no one really trusts them anymore, and no one wants them in a visible role in the church. And we'll justify our response with all kinds of theological claims, but the God-honest truth is, we don't have the kind of compassion, understanding, acceptance and desire for intimacy that God does.
[/quote]

Thank you for this Father.

[ironmonk]

This thread has nothing to do with being harsh or not being gentle.

This has to do with the simple fact that we cannot endorse sin without going against the teachings of the Church.

This is not judging anyone... it is a simple statement of fact that something is a sin.

If you lie, it's a sin. If you endorse lying and think nothing is wrong with it, you are going against Catholic teachings.

Now, please replace the word "lie" with any other sin in the book... it fits in that sentance.

If you ______, it's a sin. If you endorse ______ and think nothing is wrong with it, you are going against Catholic teachings.

Saying something is a sin is not judging people... it's telling them the truth to save their souls.

God understands our struggles, but that does not give us a 'get out of jail' card to sin and endorse sin. We can never say "it's ok to do 'this' sin".

Sirach 5:4
Say not: "I have sinned, yet what has befallen me?" for the LORD bides his time.
5 Of forgiveness be not overconfident, adding sin upon sin.
6 Say not: "Great is his mercy; my many sins he will forgive."
7 For mercy and anger alike are with him; upon the wicked alights his wrath.
8 Delay not your conversion to the LORD, put it not off from day to day;
9 For suddenly his wrath flames forth; at the time of vengeance, you will be destroyed.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Jaime]

Well if one doesn't look at intent, then sin is being oversimplified. Unintentional ignorance can lessen the sin or make the action not considered a sin.

Let's take your example of lying.

The Church infallibly teaches that life begins at conception and is sacred. There are no degrees of life beginning at conception, it simply happens. Many people feel that this is true with two caveats, in cases of rape or incest. They have found some means to justify the termination of a pregnancy in these cases, yet they erringly consider themselves prolife. But the Church and the early Church Fathers have condemned all abortions regardless. Therefore making any support of abortion not prolife. Are these people lying? Not necessarily. They could be misinformed or uneducated. Now if someone fully understands Church teaching and knows that life always begins at conception, regardless of how that life was formed, and calls that same person prolife with full knowledge of their beliefs, is that person lying? Is that person actively promoting a lie? Is that person endorsing sin?

Intent is always integral to sin.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='jasJis' post='970139' date='May 3 2006, 04:11 PM']
AofJ,
I don't mean to be rude, but it's going to come off that way. Did you read his posts, or just skim them because you feel you have the gist of what he's saying?
I've often made comments to i-monk about HOW he presents things, but WHAT he's saying isn't usually the issue. Whether you like HOW he says things, please read WHAT he's saying. That's a good rule to follow before making a comment on what ANYONE has posted. READ the posts. Your comments would then be a contribution and welcome, even if you disagree.
[/quote]

I was not insinuating that IM had those sentiments of what I was asking. I am merely asking a question to see as a litmus test, if you will, if he considers that a sin. If yes, then we have something to talk about, if not, then his saying that venial sin goes against church teachings is nothing new.

[jasJis]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' post='970528' date='May 3 2006, 10:55 PM']
I was not insinuating that IM had those sentiments of what I was asking. I am merely asking a question to see as a litmus test, if you will, if he considers that a sin. If yes, then we have something to talk about, if not, then his saying that venial sin goes against church teachings is nothing new. [/quote]I don't buy it. He said it wasn't wrong and not a sin already. Why'd ya ask again? Did your litmus paper get wet?

[Azriel]

This thread is fast going to become a personal snipping match. Take care that it doesn't become that, please.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='jasJis' post='970551' date='May 4 2006, 03:17 AM']
I don't buy it. He said it wasn't wrong and not a sin already. Why'd ya ask again? Did your litmus paper get wet?
[/quote]

Because in a previous thread he stated that the only way [b]not [/b] to sin when we feed the hungry is to send them back to their country. I asked again so that he can clarify this qoute of his.

[quote]No one is talking about not feeding the hungry... We are talking about what is a sin and what is not. To break a just law is a sin, does not matter what kind of law it is. It is a federal offense to help illegal immigrants stay in America... this means we cannot give them a job, encourage them to stay in America, and give them a home to live in... this does not mean we can't give them a place to sleep on their way back to where they came from, this does not mean that we cannot give them food when they are hungry during their journey home... Otherwise we break the law and therefore we sin.[/quote]

and then ask him to reconcile it with this

[quote]'I was a stranger and you welcomed me.' Today the illegal migrant comes before us like that 'stranger' in whom Jesus asks to be recognized. To welcome him and show him solidarity is a duty of hospitality and fidelity to Christian identity itself.

-Pope John Paul II, Annual message for World Migration Day, 1996[/quote]

I, respectfully take your point of "not buying it" and will make a note of it to clarify myself next time. I have a habit of always asking leading questions and have the person find his errors in his own answers. Sometimes, it doesn't work.

[jasJis]

AoJ,
Have you gone to maybe your Diocese's website or the USCCB's and read their statements? Despite what Mahoney says, the USCCB flatly and clearly states "They do not promote or encourage illegal immigration." Reconcile that with i-monk's statements and you can see where he's coming from.

[Jaime]

[quote name='jasJis' post='970796' date='May 4 2006, 09:57 AM']
AoJ,
Have you gone to maybe your Diocese's website or the USCCB's and read their statements? Despite what Mahoney says, the USCCB flatly and clearly states "They do not promote or encourage illegal immigration." Reconcile that with i-monk's statements and you can see where he's coming from.
[/quote]

Mahoney has never said anything to the contrary of the USCCB (well in regards to immigration anyway, liturgical dance is a different subject altogether)

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='jasJis' post='970796' date='May 4 2006, 07:57 AM']
AoJ,
Have you gone to maybe your Diocese's website or the USCCB's and read their statements? Despite what Mahoney says, the USCCB flatly and clearly states "They do not promote or encourage illegal immigration." Reconcile that with i-monk's statements and you can see where he's coming from.
[/quote]


I never said that I promote illegal immigration. Neither did the Pope. The fact that there are illegal immigrants and nothing short of physically harming them is going to stop them from coming in makes it irrelevant whether you support it or not. They are here. What do you do with them? They will not go back. Call immigration and have them deported? Try it, the INS does not respond. They're hungry and thirsty. What do you do? I try not to sin but I fail miserably everyday. Am I sinning when I know I can't do anything to send them back but feed the anyway? I am asking.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='969433' date='May 3 2006, 06:08 AM']
just because it is against the law, does not make something sinful. Breaking an administrative law is rarely considered sinful, only when one breaks a law that is also a moral law is it a sin.

Also, according to Rodger Cardinal Mahoney of Las Angeles, the exact opposite on what you say above is true. He would argue that it is sinful not to help illegal immigrants. I'd say, its usually best to heed the advice of a cardinal. [/quote]



If a law is considered a just law then it must be followed or otherwise it is an evil action. I love to use speeding as an example here.



If the law is unjust and it calls for evil action (such as the Chinese law to abortion) it must be rejected and the opposite followed. In this case the person must do everything in his power to counter the law and act otherwise.



If the law is unjust and just limiting, then it doesn't have to be necessarily rejected, but it doesn't have to be followed.

[jasJis]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' post='970852' date='May 4 2006, 09:27 AM']
I never said that I promote illegal immigration. Neither did the Pope. The fact that there are illegal immigrants and nothing short of physically harming them is going to stop them from coming in makes it irrelevant whether you support it or not. They are here. What do you do with them? They will not go back. Call immigration and have them deported? Try it, the INS does not respond. They're hungry and thirsty. What do you do? I try not to sin but I fail miserably everyday. Am I sinning when I know I can't do anything to send them back but feed the anyway? I am asking.[/quote]Go to the ArchDiocese of LA's site and do a search on Mahoney's statements on other sites. Compare the two.

Go the the JusticeForImmigrants site and read FAQ. (It's a Catholic site.)

You will find, Mahoney himself states that he is using an "extreme and unlikely" extension of the law to say that their would be a problem with giving charitable aid to illegal immigrants. NOWHERE on the LA Diocese site will you see anything mentioned about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, either condoning or condemming it. Mahoney created the Classic Straw Man argument that caused defeat of real immigration reform.


On the JusticeForImmigrant site and the USCCB site you will see that one of the primary concerns is to stop illegal immigration because it is immoral on many levels and the primary victims are the illegal immigrants. The McCain/Kennedy proposal was a great proposal, but where was the support for it? Quick legal status with a 5 year temporary visa and a clear avenue for Citizenship was sacrificed to to the pyre of emotional reactions that immigrants can't be helped by charity with Mahoney fanning the flames. The fuel of that bonfire was the lives and suffering of the millions of illegal immigrants that are here. The only people warmed by the fire were the power hungry media stars and dishonest politicians. (I won't name names)

The Church is very clear. Moral decisions are simple. A balance of a number of moral principles must be the goal. Misguided postering in this matter serves nobody in need.

You are right, the Church not only does not support illegal immigration, it also condemns it.

-You stop it by removing the motivation. It won't happen in 2 days and there are many aspects.

-They may be here and we need to deal with it. There is not point in encouraging more without a resolution.

-How to deal with the ones here: Provide the ones here with legal status so they can work legally. Penalize the employers who break the laws.

If somebody is dancing on the edge of the cliff, giving them comfortable shoes is not really helping them. Sometimes you have to tackle them and drag them from the edge before you make their feet comfy.

Edited May 4, 2006 by jasJis

[ironmonk]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' post='970785' date='May 4 2006, 10:47 AM']
Because in a previous thread he stated that the only way not to sin when we feed the hungry is to send them back to their country.
[/quote]


No I didn't.

I never wrote that it was our place to send them back in this thread. I wrote that it would be a sin to feed them and encourage them to stay in America...

The only way not to sin is to feed them when they are on their way back to where they came from... Otherwise we sin by breaking the law.

Now, we could be sinning by not reporting them if the law requires us to do so. This is not my opinion, it is Church teachings... only only has to read the Catechism.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Jaime]

[quote]Because in a previous thread he stated that the only way not to sin when we feed the hungry is to send them back to their country.
[/quote]

[quote]No I didn't.
[/quote]



[quote name='ironmonk' post='935232' date='Apr 4 2006, 11:08 AM']



No one is saying do not give food, water, or medical treatment to illegals, nor does the bill even imply this. To assume that Mahony is competant in the matter is foolish. Encouraging someone to stay in America is providing a job and a place to stay... [b]Give illegals food, water, and medical treatment and help them get back to their country of origin if you do not want to sin.
[/b]
It is time people learn to think, and to know how to think one's priorities must be in order... Spirit comes first, everything else is after that. When spiritual needs are first, "NOT sinning" is the first priority.


[/quote]

Yeah you did in another thread.

As was stated.


And I was hoping for a response on my comment about intent.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='971060' date='May 4 2006, 01:09 PM']
No I didn't.

I never wrote that it was our place to send them back in this thread. I wrote that it would be a sin to feed them and encourage them to stay in America...

The only way not to sin is to feed them when they are on their way back to where they came from... Otherwise we sin by breaking the law.

Now, we could be sinning by not reporting them if the law requires us to do so. This is not my opinion, it is Church teachings... only only has to read the Catechism.

God Bless,
ironmonk
[/quote]
LOL

Ever considered going into politics? You're becoming quite the spin master. Next you'll be talking about the definition of "is".