confession's forgiveness vs. christ's forgiveness

[thessalonian]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='981825' date='May 15 2006, 06:55 PM']
The same thing everyone else here has. My and his version fits quite nicely with Scripture and I don't see yours. What have you all accomplished with your personal opinion?

My "opinion" is the rule of God. That is what everyone here is saying. It's ridiculous really. Of coruse it is my opinion, but I think God would want us to be humble with our beliefs and say.. this seems to be right... instead of saying this is right and thinking faith is what justifies that. See, a lot of people mistakingly think that's what faith should do. Some just use faith as their excuse to pontificate sinfully.
[/quote]

Protestantism is exalting the self and personal opinion. That is simple fact. It is not humble. It does not accept teaching. That's why there is such incredible division among you.

[Guest Setsuna]

This is [b]personal opinion [/b] I would like to express. And that would be; If you are to ask God for forgivneess for sins through Christ, as he is the Only one who can, why go to a human being? Humans cannot relieve us for sinning, for they too sin as well, so they can only council us. Confession, in my eyes, to a priest is like confiding in an almost stranger who can only give you advice. Just as any other person, merely advice to help the situation. But in the end; God is the only one who forgives. Humans are to forgive eachother anyway as we are all imperfect.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Setsuna' post='982136' date='May 16 2006, 07:24 AM']
This is [b]personal opinion [/b] I would like to express. And that would be; If you are to ask God for forgivneess for sins through Christ, as he is the Only one who can, why go to a human being? Humans cannot relieve us for sinning, for they too sin as well, so they can only council us. Confession, in my eyes, to a priest is like confiding in an almost stranger who can only give you advice. Just as any other person, merely advice to help the situation. But in the end; God is the only one who forgives. Humans are to forgive eachother anyway as we are all imperfect.
[/quote]


Because Christ told us to (john 20:21-23) because he knows that we need to voice our sins and know that they are forgiven. In that passage we recieve his gaurantee that our sins are fogiven. For me this is a great grace as I can let go of my sins. Priests have great knowledge in and understanding of how sin works and can give great advice. They are also ministers of grace. They do not only give advice but their absolution restores man to full fellowship with Christ if he is in serious sin. That is 2000 years of Chruch teaching and it is consistent with the words of Jesus Christ in scritpure.

As for Christ being the only one to forgive sins we agree. Christ is there in the sacrament of confession when the priest gives absolution and when the priest gives us that absolution we have assurance that those sins are forgiven by God. Christ forgives them. We make no denial of the neccessity of his forgiveness.

Let me present this passage as one for discussion:

[1] And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city.
[2] And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven."
[3] And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming."
[4] But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
[5] For which is easier, to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Rise and walk'?
[6] But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" -- he then said to the paralytic -- "Rise, take up your bed and go home."
[7] And he rose and went home.
[8] When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

In v. 8 what is the authority? Who are the men? Was Jesus a man or men? in Mark's account of this story, the Jews make the object as you do, that only God can forgive sin. (Mark 2 and luke 5).

[Desert Walker]

There's a very simple answer to this question.

When you sin (in any way) you offend the ENTIRE Body of Christ, every member. Obviously you can't go and reconcile yourself to each member of the Body of Christ, nor can you kneel down in the privacy of your room and beg forgiveness from each member of the Body of Christ.

So you go to the priest, who is Christ's most direct representative in the flesh (bar the pope), and confess to the priest how you've sinned against Christ's Body.

What takes place in the Confessional is a very mystical thing, but it's also a very practical thing.

[missionseeker]

And Jesus knew what it was like to be human. He knew what it was like to be hurt, to lose a loved one, and to be tempted. And while He never did give into to temptation, He understood how Peter felt when he denied Him. He knew that we feel (or at least should feel) awful and sorry when we sin. And so, He made a way for us to know that He does forgive us in a very personal way.

A preist is just saying the words for Christ. They are not of their own power forgiving the sins. To hear someone say "I absolve you from your sins." and know that Jesus Himself is saying it is so personal and comforting and [i]real[/i].

Also, personal things aren't always the most comfortable things. Jesus also knew that. Confession is definitely one of the ones that make you squirm (beforehand) you are about to bare your soul to another person. Everybody (or at least 99% of people) goes through this right before confession. It's like "I can't say that. What will Father think? How will I every be able to look him in the face agian?" ect. It's hard to remember that this is not as bad as we think it will be. And that Father won't remember even if you go "face-to-face". (One of the preists I know said that no matter who or what, after he steps out the confessional he remembers nothing. Yet another example of how much Jesus thought through this and understands the human nature.) It is hard to go to confession sometimes. But Jesus' gneorosity and thoughtfulness that is shown in the way this sacrament works is amazing.

Some people think that Catholics go to Confession because the Church requires it or because it's some other lie that Church tells us that if we don't, we'll go to Hell. But Catholics go to confession to experience the most wonderful feeling in the world. We know religion is not a "warm-fuzzy-feeling" deal. But, honestly, the feeling that you get you get after Confession is the warmest fuzziest feeling I have ever felt or anyone I know has ever felt (that's what they told me)- even when it comes during a half hour cry after an hour and a half stalling outside the confessional feeling one of the most horrible feelings in the world.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]If you believe in Jesus, your sins are forgiven. Why do you need to go to confession when your sins are forgiven?
[/quote]

Well, your sins are not forgiven just for believeing in Jesus, though you must believe in Jesus to be forgiven of your sins. To be forgiven of your sins you first must have the three theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity. If you obtain those virtues you then must have contrition for your sins. It only makes sense that you have to be sorry for your sins to be forgiven of them. Also, you can be forgiven of your sins extrasacramentally. To do so you must meet the aforementioned requirements, but you also must have perfect contrition a desire to recieve the Sacrament of Penance and a firm purpose of ammendment. The reasons why you must go to Confession even after you are forgiven of your sins even after you are forgiven of them extrasacramentally is that you may be unexcommunicated (you are excommunicated after comitting moral sin) and to recieve the graces that come from the sacrament.

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='986309' date='May 21 2006, 02:04 AM']
Well, your sins are not forgiven just for believeing in Jesus, though you must believe in Jesus to be forgiven of your sins. To be forgiven of your sins you first must have the three theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity. If you obtain those virtues you then must have contrition for your sins. It only makes sense that you have to be sorry for your sins to be forgiven of them. Also, you can be forgiven of your sins extrasacramentally. To do so you must meet the aforementioned requirements, but you also must have perfect contrition a desire to recieve the Sacrament of Penance and a firm purpose of ammendment. The reasons why you must go to Confession even after you are forgiven of your sins even after you are forgiven of them extrasacramentally is that you may be unexcommunicated (you are excommunicated after comitting moral sin) and to recieve the graces that come from the sacrament.
[/quote]

"For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. For, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved"

[MC Just]

Confessions forgiveness is CHRISTS forgiveness. lol protestants are really funny. They are theives, they stole our bible than slaughtered it. Then then they think they can just break into the kingdom! I think its blasphemy to create your own church. Because that's saying Christ somehow messed up.



The Early Church Fathers believed that the Catholic Church was the one true Church, that it taught infallibly and that the clergy was made up of three ranks; bishop, priest, and deacon.

Ignatius of Antioch

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a Church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him (Letter to the Trallians 3:1-2 [A. D. 110]).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the things pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there should arise a dispute relative to some important question among us. Should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary [in that case] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the churches? (ibid. 3:4).

Tertullian

Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D.200])

Clement of Alexandria

A multitude of other pieces of advice to particular persons is written in the holy books: some for presbyters, some for bishops and deacons; and others for widows, of whom we shall have opportunity to speak elsewhere (The Instructor of Children 3:12:97:2 [pre-A.D. 202]).

Even here in the Church the gradations of bishops, presbyters, and deacons happen to be imitations, in my opinion, of the angelic glory and of that arrangement which, the Scriptures say, awaits those who have followed in the footsteps of the apostles and who have lived in complete righteousness according to the gospel (Stromateis 6:13:107:2 [post-A.D. 202]).

Hippolytus

When a deacon is to be ordained, he is chosen after the fashion of those things said above, the bishop alone in like manner imposing his hands upon him as we have prescribed. In the ordaining of a deacon, this is the reason why the bishop alone is to impose his hands upon him: He is not ordained to the priesthood, but to serve the bishop and to fulfill the bishop's command. He has no part in the council of the clergy, but is to attend to his own duties and is to acquaint the bishop with such matters as are needful. . . . On a presbyter [priest], however, let the presbyters impose their hands because of the common and like Spirit of the clergy. Even so, the presbyter has only the power to receive [the Spirit], and not the power to give [the Spirit]. That is why a presbyter does not ordain the clergy; for at the ordaining of a presbyter, he but seals while the bishop ordains. (Apostolic Tradition 9 [ca. A.D. 215]).

Origen

Not fornication only, but even marriages make us unfit for ecclesiastical honors; for neither a bishop, nor a presbyter, nor a deacon, nor a widow is able to be twice married (Homilies on Luke, 17 [ca. A.D. 235]).

Cyprian

The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She knows one home . . . Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation (On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [A.D. 251]).

Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another (Letters 66 [A.D. 253]).

Church Fathers Next




Here's another nice one.:

Ignatius of Antioch

Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine [i.e., is a heretic], he has no part in the Passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3-4:1 [A.D. 110]).

hmm first century, obviously Catholic, doesnt look like a protestant bible church. Probably because those churches didnt exist until the 1500's. I'm sorry to be uncharitable, but the bible is not yours to interpret. It is a product of the catholic, and only the Catholic church knows its meaning.

Here's some more wisdom from the Holy Roman Catholic Church:

This is about Confession.

The Early Church Fathers on
Confession/Reconciliation

The Early Church Fathers taught that Christ passed on His authority to forgive sins to His priests.

The Didache

Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . , On the Lord's Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure (Didache 4:14,14:1 [A.D.70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop (ibid. 8).

Irenaeus

[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between two courses (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).

The Church has the power of forgiving sins. This I acknowledge and adjudge (ibid. 21).

Hippolytus

[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your Royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles. . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen

[A filial method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, "I said, to the Lord, I will accuse myself of my iniquity" (Homilies in Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian

The Apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord "[I Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at: the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to his body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him (The Lapsed 15:1-3 (A.D. 251]).

Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . I beseech you, brethren; let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord (ibid. 28).

Sinners may do penance For a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, "Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" [I Cor. 11:27] (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253])

John Chrysostom

Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: "Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed." Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding: but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? "Whose sins you shall forgive," he says, "they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21-23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

Prev. Church Fathers Next

Edited May 21, 2006 by MC Just

[ChrisZewe]

If you honestly think that anyone is going to read all that...

[missionseeker]

lol

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='986353' date='May 21 2006, 08:35 AM']
If you honestly think that anyone is going to read all that...
[/quote]
that's why you're still ignorant and have these misconception about the church because you don't take the time to look at the evidence we present you.

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='986778' date='May 21 2006, 10:55 PM']
that's why you're still ignorant and have these misconception about the church because you don't take the time to look at the evidence we present you.
[/quote]

I think the length of the previous post has less to do with anyone refusing to read evidence and more to the fact that I, if I were Catholic, would hope that someone would read the Catechism, rather than a post, to learn about what Roman Catholics believe.

The Catholic Answer forum founder instituted this rule on his forums:

[quote]Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (including replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message). [/quote]

Something such as that previous post would be much better as a link and that the poster would tell us about those quotes in summary.

Just my humble opinion though. If you made a poll I think you would find most people do not read posts in full that take longer than a few minutes to read.

[Franimus]

[quote name='cappie' post='978106' date='May 11 2006, 06:01 AM']
First, let’s look at the Sacrament of Reconciliation from a Biblical standpoint:

• Jesus commanded it! John 20:21-23 reads:
”Jesus said to them again ‘Peace be with you. As the Father sends me I send you.’ And he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.’

This was Pentecost, the birth of our Church. Over 2000 years, Jesus’ command has been passed and obeyed; our Bishops are the inheritors of their authority. At Ordination, priests get their ability to perform the Sacraments from their Bishop. Therefore we must forgive sin.

• There is no such thing as a private sin. Whether we have committed the sin by ourselves or with other people, a sin always has effects throughout the entire community of the faith. Let me explain it on two levels:

1. If one of us sins it changes the way we interact with other people... maybe because of the shame or guilt of the sin or maybe because of fear of being found, but no matter what, sin affects our behavior.

2. St. Paul's analogy of the Body of Christ (Romans 12:3-8) states that all believers in Christ are united. This means that if one of us sins we damage the Body that all of us belong to. Therefore, reconciliation must be done through a representative of the Body, and for us as Catholics that representative is a priest.
Now let’s look at the Sacrament of Reconciliation from a more personal and practical perspective: that whole "I can just have a personal relationship with God and He will forgive my sins." I just don't think it works real well. Let me explain...

• There's just too many "saved" people walking around feeling guilty all the time. I also think that there are people who don't want to be humbled before God by telling Him that we are so sorry for our sins and that we will do anything to get right Him again...including telling another person the sins we have committed (look at James 5:16). Telling others our sin makes us vulnerable because it shows that we are not perfect.

• A popular trend with our Protestant brothers and sisters is having an accountability partner. Your accountability partner is a friend that you can trust and confide in, sharing those times when sinned and then giving advice and support. If nothing else, having an accountability partner is convicting because you know that you'll have to tell a friend when you've sinned, and thus you try to avoid sin to save the embarrassment. Having an "accountability partner" sounds a lot like going to Reconciliation to me.

• Priests hear Confessions all the time, and are trained in counseling and resolving those who struggle with sin. A priest can give insightful advice that a peer accountability partner may not be able to.

• We long for human interaction, especially when it comes to forgiveness. For example, if your friends talk behind your back, and you forgive them, isn't so much more meaningful and authentic to tell them you forgive them? Or if you done something bad to others: doesn't it feel so much better to go up to them and ask for forgiveness...to look in their eyes and tell them you’ve done wrong? There is real closure in asking and giving forgiveness. That human intimacy in forgiveness is such a beautiful gift from God. Why would we rob ourselves of that feeling when asking God for forgiveness?
[/quote]
I just wanted to highlight what cappie said since basically anything and everything that I'd have to say in this thread is in this post. Also don't forget that the priest is bound by the sacrament to keep anything and everything you tell him in confession, in confession (side note: I found out that if you ask a priest to remind you later to see him for confession, he can't since it would be pressurring you to go to confession (plus you might've gone to another priest since then, without telling him)). Unless, of course, you don't do your penance, in which case the sacrament was invalid (Either way, he's more tightly bound to secrecy than anybody else).

Setsuna - if the priest is like a total stranger to you, that's your fault. Typically, a Catholic chooses a "confession priest" to whom the Catholic regularly goes to for confession. This enables the priest to help you even more (with better advice and penance and such) since the priest will be familiar with you and your situation.

[Desert Walker]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='986353' date='May 21 2006, 07:35 AM']
If you honestly think that anyone is going to read all that...
[/quote]

One of the more annoying aspects of "boarding." But I'm guilty of it too.

But I'm trying harder not to write posts on which one could walk accross the Atlantic.