"Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone"

[Andreas E.]

thessalonian, your argument makes perfect sense, (and wheels are starting to turn) but still then how come Jesus can make seemingly contradictory statements? The following reflects my belief of the assurance of salvation. As I feel like Moses when it comes to phrasing my argument, I will let this speak for me. The author is Hank Hanegraaf, a well known apologetic. He heads the Christian Research Institute.

CHRISTIANS AND THE ASSURANCE OF SALVATION

Can Christians lose their salvation? Now that's an important question. Can I be sure that I'm really saved?

Most Christians have probably had moments of doubt about their salvation. After all, we've all entertained thoughts and have committed acts that we knew were displeasing to God. We've all experienced that sense of remorse and sometimes questioned the reality of our salvation afterwards. Backsliding can no doubt cause such feelings to arise, and should hopefully move us to repentance (1 John 1:9).

However, when it comes to the issue of eternal security, the Bible makes it absolutely clear that those who have been saved will never be lost. Jesus emphatically pointed this out in the Gospel of John when, in reference to believers, He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28). In this passage, Christ explicitly declared that no one who has received eternal life will ever lose it.

Furthermore, in such passages as 2 Corinthians 1:22, and Ephesians 1:13, the apostle Paul indicated that the Holy Spirit acts as the very seal of God's ownership of the believer; He serves as the guarantee of our inheritance to come - namely, eternal life (John 5:24; 1 John 5:13). In describing our inheritance the apostle Peter used some very powerful words - words like "imperishable," "undefiled," and "unfading" (1 Pet. 1:5). With these words He underscored the everlasting assurance believers have with respect to God's gift of salvation.

Now I know what you're asking: "What about the Christians who have completely abandoned their faith?" Well, judging by what we're told in Scripture we can only conclude that they were never saved from the start. You see, while "once saved, always saved" is true from God's perspective, man only looks at the outward appearance and thus cannot always accurately assess who is really saved in the first place. The question therefore is not whether someone lost their salvation, but whether they had ever had it at all. As Romans chapter eight says, "there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (v. 38-29). He is the very source of our salvation.

And remember, eternal life that comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life. It begins at the moment of conversion and stretches on through the eons of time.

[thessalonian]

I am familiar with Hank. I listen to him sometimes. I have to say his "research" on Catholicism isn't very good.

I would say in the context of loss of salvation, it is true that one cannot loose a salvation that God knows he will attain. But the verses I quoted above clearly show from our perspective that the scriptures WARN us that we can fall from grace. In fact Paul says it himself.

Gal.5
[4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Once again you can't be severed from what you were not attached to. You cannot have fallen from a tree you were never in. Neither can you fall from grace if you were not in it.

Hank quotes:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28).

The fact of the matter is that over and over we are told we must abide in Christ. We must continue to follow him. It is not a one time deal. The question that divides us is can one be in grace and then fall from it. Be in Christ and then fall away. The scriptures are clear on this matter. Such a person did have eternal life. But fell away as we are told that some will do. No one snatched them away as Hank's verse says. They have free will and chose to turn away. Grace is not irresistable. God does not force us to persevere, though he gives us the grace to if we are called to grace. God knows who will be saved from his perspective but from our perspective we must persevere in grace. There is no passage that says men cannot come to grace and fall from it. Once again, hank also misunderstands the catholic view of grace as well. Grace is not just God being nice and forgetting our past. God is alive in us and that brings grace that guides us about.

Now are there some who "were never really one of us". Most certainly from God's perspective there are some who will not attain salvation. Hank puts them all in to one category. Never were in grace. But the passage does not say that. Judas is said to be "my trusted friend" in the Psalms. This to me indicates that at some point he was in grace, though I cannot say for sure. But it is possible also there are those who are in grace and fall from grace and also those who are never really in it in the first place. At any rate bottom line is Hank does not take a global approach to scripture.

Blessings

[Andreas E.]

Thanks everyone who answered and discussed my questions with me over the last few days. I am seriously thinking about converting. One last question, though: since all local parishes are centered around the same faith, are they essentially the same? This may be an odd question, but as some reformed converts will attest, you have to go "church shopping" before you may find one where you agree with the teaching. Since Roman Catholic teaching is the same, I would think that this should not be an issue. However, it appears that Scott Hahn had some issues with priests and had to go higher up to get concrete answers.

[Franimus]

[quote name='Andreas E.' post='987996' date='May 22 2006, 11:44 PM']
Thanks everyone who answered and discussed my questions with me over the last few days. I am seriously thinking about converting. One last question, though: since all local parishes are centered around the same faith, are they essentially the same? This may be an odd question, but as some reformed converts will attest, you have to go "church shopping" before you may find one where you agree with the teaching. Since Roman Catholic teaching is the same, I would think that this should not be an issue. However, it appears that Scott Hahn had some issues with priests and had to go higher up to get concrete answers.
[/quote]

There are no differences in beliefs. There may be slight differences in customs (such as not leaving before the recessional hymn ends, or singing alelulia again after the gospel, or regularly distributing the Eucharist in the form of wine additionally, or regularly using inscence, etc), the music style might differ, obviously the building itself will differ, the congregation will differ (some are loud, some outgoing, some quiet, some old, some young, some rich, some poor), and the style of the individual priest will differ (some priests are loud, some quiet, some in-your-face, some laid back, some strict, some boring, some funny). If there are any doctrinal differences, something is wrong (i.e. if a priest is teaching that the Eucharist is not the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus, that priest is "not in communion with the Church," that priest basically deserves one of those "hello, i do not rep the church" signs). You shouldn't have to worry about that, though.

Typically, various churches (or parishes, to make it easier to distinguish from the Catholic Church) within a diocese (like a county) are pretty similar since they're close to each other and may have many common customs.

[Andreas E.]

Thanks, that makes sense.

Wish me all the best in "sliding!" :

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Andreas E.' post='987996' date='May 22 2006, 10:44 PM']
Thanks everyone who answered and discussed my questions with me over the last few days. I am seriously thinking about converting. One last question, though: since all local parishes are centered around the same faith, are they essentially the same? This may be an odd question, but as some reformed converts will attest, you have to go "church shopping" before you may find one where you agree with the teaching. Since Roman Catholic teaching is the same, I would think that this should not be an issue. However, it appears that Scott Hahn had some issues with priests and had to go higher up to get concrete answers.
[/quote]


I can count on 1 hand the number of times I have heard things in Mass from a priest that were against Church teaching. This does not mean that in private a priest might give you an opinion that is contrary to Church teaching and I have know some who would do so in private. In Catholicism it is the priests responsibility to pass on the Word of God. Not his opinion. I can go to austrailia and find a Church that teaches what my Church in Minneapolis teaches quite easily. Just open the phone book and look up Catholic. In that Church I will recieve the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. God bless you in your journey. You have my prayers.

[jswranch]

"Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone" is just fine for Catholics. The problem is how we define 'faith alone.'