Homosexuality

[Semperviva]

This has most likely already been discussed, but for what it's worth, homosexuality has deep psychological roots that often seem to then manifest themselves physically in terms of attraction (I think it is also important to note that same sex attraction is not inherently lustful and hence not inherently evil). As with depression or other states, this psychological state can lead to chemical or hormonal tendencies/imbalances. However, the question in deeming it a mental disorder is whether or not there are [i]other[/i] factors like genetic, hormonal, etc. besides "(solely) mental disorder" as an accurate decription of this state. Homosexuality is more complex then that.

[quote name='Sojourner' post='988563' date='May 23 2006, 12:23 PM']
My understanding has been that lust IS disordered, in whatever form it manifests itself. I didn't realize there was a gray area in which lust is actually within the natural order.
[/quote]

Your mistake is in automatically connoting homosexuality with lust. This is not the case. Same-sex attraction does not always involve lust. It can and does happen in scenarios where a person apprehends the good of another and feels elated at their presence so as to evoke feeling of being "in-love" in an innocent manner.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Semperviva

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Sojourner' post='988563' date='May 23 2006, 02:23 PM']
Could you please provide some sort of documentation on this? My understanding has been that lust IS disordered, in whatever form it manifests itself. I didn't realize there was a gray area in which lust is actually within the natural order.
[/quote]

Sorry, that's right, it is disordered... What I was meaning is "strong attraction", not actually desiring to have sex. I think many people mistake strong attraction and lust...

[b]2351 [/b]
Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cam42' post='987980' date='May 22 2006, 09:27 PM']
You, sport. I am referring to the current catechetical view.
[/quote]
Please carefully read mine and other's posts, as well as St. Thomas Aquinas' writings on the subject of the sin of lust, before throwing out such nonsensical accusations. I have said absolutely nothing here which contradicts the Catechism, or Catholic teaching.
Come off it!

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' post='988967' date='May 23 2006, 07:40 PM']
Please carefully read mine and other's posts, as well as St. Thomas Aquinas' writings on the subject of the sin of lust, before throwing out such nonsensical accusations. I have said absolutely nothing here which contradicts the Catechism, or Catholic teaching.
Come off it!
[/quote]


I think what he is referring to is that you said that homosexual desires were intrinsically disordered. The current catechetical view is that they are objectively disordered. Homosexual actions are intrinsically disordoered

And thanks for the Aquinas, I'm reading up

[Sojourner]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='988941' date='May 23 2006, 08:16 PM']
Sorry, that's right, it is disordered... What I was meaning is "strong attraction", not actually desiring to have sex. I think many people mistake strong attraction and lust...

[b]2351 [/b]
Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
God Bless,
ironmonk
[/quote]
Thanks for the clarification.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='986547' date='May 21 2006, 03:35 PM'][quote]A man suffering from this disorder is not healthy as far as his sexual development is concerned.[/quote]

That should be prefaced with "In my opinion" because that is all it is.[/quote]

Except he is not healthy as far as his sexual development is concerned.

You, in later posts, added the mental part that Todd never mentioned.

By the way, arguing that it is only physical problem is dangerously close to Modernism as I can see it...Andy could probably back this up as he's studied the philosophers.

[Cam42]

hot stuff is doing just fine on his own. And he is nowhere near Modernism.

[Jaime]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='989987' date='May 24 2006, 08:43 PM']
That should be prefaced with "In my opinion" because that is all it is.

Except he is not healthy as far as his sexual development is concerned.

You, in later posts, added the mental part that Todd never mentioned. [edit: smiley smashed into little pieces]

By the way, arguing that it is only physical problem is dangerously close to Modernism as I can see it...Andy could probably back this up as he's studied the philosophers. [edit: smiley set on fire]
[/quote]

If I "added" mental its because its the topic of the thread. speaking of calling folks out on adding stuff, when did I ever say it was a physical problem? I never did because I never would.

What I've stated is not modernism it is in line with Catholic teaching. While homosexual desires are objectively disordered, a person can have them and be considered mentally healthy.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='990255' date='May 25 2006, 09:25 AM']
If I "added" mental its because its the topic of the thread. speaking of calling folks out on adding stuff, when did I ever say it was a physical problem? I never did because I never would.

What I've stated is not modernism it is in line with Catholic teaching. While homosexual desires are objectively disordered, a person can have them and be considered mentally healthy.
[/quote]
How can you be disordered and healthy at the same time? Seems like an oxymoron to me.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='KnightofChrist']So Homosexuality is a metal disorder. There are many ppl with a metal illness that can not or will not see their dis-order... their failer to see it doesnt prove anything.[/quote]

Someone's curse is another's blessing. If you can think rationally and prefer the "illness" to the "health", then it can't be called an illness. Or would you claim that homosexuals have trouble making rational decisions?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='990333' date='May 25 2006, 09:55 AM']
Someone's curse is another's blessing. If you can think rationally and prefer the "illness" to the "health", then it can't be called an illness. Or would you claim that homosexuals have trouble making rational decisions?
[/quote]


What you are saying is truth is relative, whats true for one is not true for another. [color="#FF0000"]Truth is not relative.[/color] Truth is always true no matter who, or how many believe in the truth. The truth remains Homosexuality is a mental disorder. An illness is still a illness even if the person who has it is can not or will not see they have a problem, and it is not a rational decision to prefer or fail to see a mental illness.

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='990375' date='May 25 2006, 11:50 AM']
What you are saying is truth is relative, whats true for one is not true for another. [color="#FF0000"]Truth is not relative.[/color] Truth is always true no matter who, or how many believe in the truth. The truth remains Homosexuality is a mental disorder. An illness is still a illness even if the person who has it is can not or will not see they have a problem, and it is not a rational decision to prefer or fail to see a mental illness.
[/quote]


And you're stating opinion not truth.

No one who thinks homosexuality is a mental disorder has shown any tangible proof. It is perpetuating a bias and a prejudice that does not help homosexuals. And it is not the position of the Church to presume mental illness on top of the cross they have to bear already.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='990568' date='May 25 2006, 03:00 PM']
And you're stating opinion not truth.

No one who thinks homosexuality is a mental disorder has shown any tangible proof. It is perpetuating a bias and a prejudice that does not help homosexuals. And it is not the position of the Church to presume mental illness on top of the cross they have to bear already.
[/quote]


Fact: Homosexuality is a disorder

Fact: Sexuality is determined in the brain, no where else.

Also it is a bit hypocritical of you to called those who do not agree with your opinon, "prejudice" after you demanded a apology from Apotheoun for comparing you to church dissentients.

[uruviel]

this is a stupid question, but if it's a disorder, how do you get it and can you treat it?

[heavenseeker]

Homosexuality is disturbing but it is also something that we can't control despite how much we might want to. My view is that we should do our best to alow those that are homosexual to be that way without letting it bother us. Because it is a disorder that some people do have and unless they do or atempt to do something to the rest of us that arnt we should not be complaining.

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='990589' date='May 25 2006, 04:46 PM']
Fact: Homosexuality is a disorder

Fact: Sexuality is determined in the brain, no where else.

Also it is a bit hypocritical of you to called those who do not agree with your opinon, "prejudice" after you demanded a apology from Apotheoun for comparing you to church dissentients.
[/quote]

Apotheoun was comparing me to someone who was advocating for the gay lifestyle, therefore against Church teachings. I've simply stated that homosexuals can be mentally healthy. BTW I've backed up "my opinion" by showing that the Church doesn't take a stance that objectively disordered equals mental disorder.

If you're offended by my calling your opinion that, then reference some facts instead of claiming them.

[Socrates]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='990261' date='May 25 2006, 07:43 AM']
How can you be disordered and healthy at the same time? Seems like an oxymoron to me.
[/quote]
Exactly. And therein lies the problem with that argument. It is nothing but contradictions.

If is nonsensical to claim that homosexual inclinations are objectively disordered, yet at the same time are healthy.

[quote name='hot stuff' post='990255' date='May 25 2006, 07:25 AM']
If I "added" mental its because its the topic of the thread. speaking of calling folks out on adding stuff, when did I ever say it was a physical problem? I never did because I never would.

What I've stated is not modernism it is in line with Catholic teaching. While homosexual desires are objectively disordered, a person can have them and be considered mentally healthy.
[/quote]
We agree that homosexual inclinations are disordered.

If the disorder is not mental, and is not physical, this begs the question of what kind of disorder is it??

It seems the only logical answer left would be that the disorder is somehow purely spiritual - that it is an evil deliberate choice of the soul against the natural order, or is a curse directly imprinted on the soul by a demon or such.
Yet somehow I doubt this is the route you wish to argue.


[quote name='heavenseeker' post='990640' date='May 25 2006, 05:23 PM']
Homosexuality is disturbing but it is also something that we can't control despite how much we might want to. My view is that we should do our best to alow those that are homosexual to be that way without letting it bother us. Because it is a disorder that some people do have and unless they do or atempt to do something to the rest of us that arnt we should not be complaining.
[/quote]
This is pure nonsense. As Christians we are called to admonish the sinner. Out of charity, we are not to let the sinner continue in their sin.

Your view here is not Catholic.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Cam42' post='990192' date='May 25 2006, 05:57 AM'] hot stuff is doing just fine on his own. And he is nowhere near Modernism. [/quote]

What is your opinion on this?

Actually, following what he said about it not being a mental disorder...well, see what Socrates pointed out in his last post?

Also, hot stuff, Todd did not compare you to a heretic...he said your view was similar. And according to that one post, it was. You added mental in your mind, but Todd specifically left it out. According to your next post, your view would be similar to that one woman's. It seems perhaps it is not, but you haven't admitted it yet, which then leads to...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='990661' date='May 25 2006, 05:49 PM']
Apotheoun was comparing me to someone who was advocating for the gay lifestyle, therefore against Church teachings. I've simply stated that homosexuals can be mentally healthy. BTW I've backed up "my opinion" by showing that the Church doesn't take a stance that objectively disordered equals mental disorder.

If you're offended by my calling your opinion that, then reference some facts instead of claiming them.
[/quote]


I'm offended by nothing you've said. I was simpley pointing out the fact that not only is your opinion flawed but you have also made a hypocritical statement. Acussing your Phatmass brethern of being prejudice when they have not spoken one word of hate is benethe you, and if it offends anything is it your character.

But you have proven that homosexuality is also objectively disordered which is still a psychological disorder, good for you. You still fail to prove that homosexuality is not a mental disorder, or where the Church says it is not.


ps, psychological = mental

[Franimus]

wow you guys are heavily into this debate...
My opinion (let it fall amonst you where it may): Homosexuality is a mental disorder, but a disorder IS NOT an illness. An illness is something that is contracted, such as Alzheimer's. A disorder is something that one is born with, such as Down Syndrom. Saying that a homosexual is "mentally ill" implies that, had their environment been different grow up, they would not have had homosexual tendancies, because they would not have been "exposed" to the ideas that made them realize that they're homosexual. Granted, there are numerous cases where people become homosexual (or bisexual) for reasons other than having this disorder, such as want of attention. Also, there are cases where homosexuals will swear up and down that they are not homosexual because they have repressed their inner tendancies so much for various reasons. Obviously, in this day and age, the latter case is dwindling in number and the former is growing. Although in that latter case the severe repression seems to result in the homosexual not sinning, I think that it can be unhealthy for most to repress severely. They must come to terms with it, accept it, and then repress it. Otherwise, you have a homophobic homosexual. That is what I would label as some sort of mental illness. I would say that homosexuality, or any disorder, is not concretely bound to being mentally ill. Mental illness is where you are essentially not in control of what your mind does, just as physical illness you are not in complete control of what your body does. A mental disorder is where you are not in control of what specifically your mind is, just as a physical disorder is where you are not in control of what specifically your body is (poor wording in that last sentance: "[u]what[/u] your mind/body is" kinda more like what it's attributes are). Summarily, I seem to taking hot stuff's opinion that one can be homosexual and mentally healthy at the same time, just as one can have nothing else mentally wrong with them, but still be mentally ill (trust me on that last part...)

Really, though, I think we're all just debating about what specific words mean. Otherwise, we're probably in agreement since the CCC is fairly clear on this issue. IMHO lust is mostly another topic. Lust is wrong in all cases, although, just as heterosexual acts are "natural" and homosexual acts are "unnatural," likewise is lust divided. Keep in mind that lusting after your wife is wrong, too.

Knight - your opinion confuses me (or at least what I think is your opinion?): [quote]But [u]you have proven that[/u] homosexuality is also objectively disordered which [u]is still a psychological disorder[/u], good for you. You still [u]fail to prove that homosexuality is not a mental disorder[/u], or where the Church says it is not.


[u]ps, psychological = mental[/u][/quote]