The Unforgivable Sin

[NewReformation]

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the one sin which will not be forgiven according to Christ(this is found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke).

Now for the question:

What constitutes Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

[foundsheep]

I would say saying it doesnt exist, or flat out denial. I might just be ign'nt( :D ,hyper!).

[frozencell]

I would say saying it doesnt exist, or flat out denial. I might just be ign'nt( :D ,hyper!).

I'd go with this. Logically, if you say that the Holy Spirit doesn't exist you state your disbelief and denial in such a being. And you can't get to heaven unless you believe in God and who He says He is, the knowledge of which is brought by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you cannot know God without the Holy Spirit. Equals unforgiveable sin. Did you follow? I almost confused myself :wacko:

[MrsFrozen]

Hi. I think I can help here.

I just finished "The Catholic Answer Book 3" by Rev. Stravinskas, and he said:

"For centuries, theologians have debated the exact nature of this sin 'against the Holy Spirit' with most coming to the conclusion that it is despair. You will recall that on Easter Night, the Risen Lord conferred the gift of the Holy Spirit on the apostles, precisely for the forgiveness of sins; hence the spirit and forgiveness are inextricably linked to one another in the intention of Christ.

"If a person is unwilling to ask for forgiveness or refuses to believe that God's mercy is greater than his sin or sinfulness, then we find ourselves before the rejection of the Holy Spirit. It is unforgivable for the simple reason that the sinner does not ask to be forgiven."

Hope this helps.

God bless! :)

[Circle_Master]

if you look at what is going on, Jesus is performing many many miracles and these pharisee's are saying that he is operating by Baal's power. Now Baal only translates as master, but it was also the Caananite God, 2nd in command according to the Rah Shamra tablets, and also a God of the weather. Basically the God of the caananites. If it really was disbelieving in the Holy Spirit then you wouldn't have any converts since anyone not believing in God would never be forgiven, but we see that they are. I don't believe we can fall into this sin today which will never be forgiven as we don't have Jesus here today and we can't say that what He is doing is by Satan's power. Hope that helps some, even though I am a protestant .

[NewReformation]

I've heard that it could be:

A) Denying the person of the Holy Spirit or denying that he is part of the Godhead.

B) Attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to Satan

or C) Ignoring the prompting of the Holy Spirit to Salvation

[foundsheep]

Would denying the Holy Spirit include not accepting the Trinity?

[cmotherofpirl]

THe unforgiveable sin is refusing to ask to be forgiven and assuming God will not forgive you.

[Bruce S]

Perhaps you might be interested in what my denomination thinks on this issue, after all the Holy Spirit, and the ENTIRE matter of the HS are of intense interest to Pentecostals, we place as much emphasis on learning about that topic, as members of the Catholic Church do on Mary, it is the topic of neverending exploration with us. Anyway, here is something to mull over from another denomination, that might have the answer.

Unpardonable Sin

What is the Assemblies of God belief concerning the unpardonable sin?

Matthew 12:31, Mark 3:29, and Luke 12:10 speak of an unforgivable sin. All three Gospel authors describe the sin as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The immediate context of Matthew and Mark indicates that the act of committing this sin involves attributing the work of Jesus done through the power of the Holy Spirit to Beelzebub, the prince of demons. However, a careful analysis of the relevant passages reveals four important aspects of the unforgivable sin.

First, it involves a deliberate or willful act of unbelief. Note that Mark 3:22 describes the Pharisees "coming down from Jerusalem." A survey of the preceding narrative (Mark 2,3) shows a pattern of opposition to Jesus’ ministry and suggests that their coming down was with the same intention. This sin was not committed in ignorance. These Pharisees (Matthew 12:24) and scribes (Mark 3:22) were experts in the Law. Matthew tells us their blasphemous accusation came after they heard the people asking whether Jesus could really be the Messiah. They had just witnessed the healing of the blind and dumb demoniac. Certainly, they if anyone should have known that Jesus’ deeds were in agreement with scriptural prophecies (see Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:16-21; 7:18-22) concerning the Messiah. This sin is not a single momentary act. While it may appear as such on the surface, the Greek rendering of Mark 3:22 is best translated, "they kept saying," indicating that the scribes were dogging Jesus’ footsteps making this accusation repeatedly. Finally, this sin was committed in full view of a demonstration of God’s power. Luke 4:18 indicates that Jesus went forth "in the power of the Holy Spirit." Consequently, the rejection of Jesus by the scribes and Pharisees constitutes a rejection of the Holy Spirit’s witness to Jesus as the Messiah.

From these four aspects we must conclude that the unpardonable sin or blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is more descriptive of a spiritual state or condition than a single act of sin. The act described in the Gospels witnesses to a final state in a process of rebellion on the part of those who have continually rejected the Holy Spirit’s witness to Christ. Such rejection and denial of the authentic work and person of the Holy Spirit results in the inability to discern "light" (the work of God) from "darkness" (the work of Satan) even when confronted by the Holy Spirit’s miracle witness to Jesus.

CONCERNS:

Often we encounter individuals who are disturbed over their lack of spiritual sensitivity or progress. Some may even doubt their salvation harboring a haunting suspicion that they have at one time committed the unpardonable sin. These individuals need to be carefully guided through the Scriptures to realize that their very concern is evidence that they have not committed the unpardonable sin. They need to note that those in the Gospels who committed this sin were persistent in their rejection of Christ, showed no remorse or repentance toward their sin of unbelief, and displayed no desire to understand the truth of Jesus’ words. They need to see what the Scriptures clearly teach: that genuine (godly) sorrow for sin will lead to repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10), that one who comes to Jesus in repentance and faith will never be cast aside (John 6:37), that "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord" will find salvation (Romans 10:9), and that the believer who confesses his/her sins has a faithful and just Savior who will provide forgiveness and spiritual cleansing (1 John 1:9).

I hope this helps.

[beng]

• "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
  
  

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1864

6 sins against the Holy Spirit

1. Despair

2. Presumption of God's mercy

3. Impugning the known truth.

4. Envy at another's spiritual good

5. Obstinacy in sin.

6. Final impenitence.

See CCC. 1864

Edited December 31, 2003 by beng

[beng]

Circle_Master

I don't believe we can fall into this sin today which will never be forgiven as we don't have Jesus here today and we can't say that what He is doing is by Satan's power.  Hope that helps some, even though I am a protestant .

No actually we can fall into this sin.

This wouldn't be Christ's fault or the imperfection of His salvation.

But because with our own God given free will, we refuse the grace of salvation.

One example comes in mind, Timothy McVeigh. This guy refused anything, last rite, reconciliation. He said that He's the captain of his own ship, even after killing so many. He had no remorse, and he didn't acknowledge God, let alone that God could save. Therefore I'm 90% sure he's in damnation.

Edited December 31, 2003 by beng

[Bruce S]

• "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
  
  

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1864

6 sins against the Holy Spirit

1. Despair

2. Presumption of God's mercy

3. Impugning the known truth.

4. Envy at another's spiritual good

5. Obstinacy in sin.

6. Final impenitence.

See CCC. 1864

Oh bull beng!

6 sins against the Holy Spirit

1. Despair

2. Presumption of God's mercy

3. Impugning the known truth.

4. Envy at another's spiritual good

5. Obstinacy in sin.

6. Final impenitence.

See CCC. 1864

Let me tear these all apart, one by one:

1: despair, look in the bible, see how many of God's men had despair in thier hearts ... deep despair, I could list page after page about despair being NORMAL for God's people, in fact, the ENTIRE NATION of Israel experienced despair, and has, so despair is NOT a sin against God, never has been, in fact God expects despair, and offers his hand to us against it.

2: Presumption is a totally Catholic invention, it justifies purgatory, and the sacramental system of salvation invented by the Catholic Church to perpetuate power in the Catholic Church. It goes against EVERYTHING that Paul taught us, this one is NOT a sin against the HS, read your bible, find where, PRESUMPTION is denied by Paul or Jesus, don't go quoting commentary by Catholic or Greek THEOLOGIANS on it, it is flat out a denial of the GIFT of salvation. Presumption being THE ETERNAL SIN my bottom.

3: Impugning the known truth. Another Catholic invention. You can deny Jesus, blaspheme HIM and you are allowed to, HE even said so himself, go read the bible again, that statement is odd, but Jesus said it, so it is so, and HE is certainly the ultimate known truth, "I am the TRUTH, the light and the way" comes immediately to mind. If you can call Jesus a name, deny him, and STILL [at that point in time, as I understand it] still be OK ... how is TRUTH defined? No one knows all the truth, we have glimmers of truth, some truth is accepted by all, other parts of it are not. So, this statement is disproven.

4:Envy at another's spiritual good. Huh? Everyone ENVIES others spiritual good. Even Catholics, should look up to, and envy the Saints, the Mother of God, the Pope, and by their ENVY, aspire to be more like them. Duh. This statement is utter nonsense. I can envy all I want, and SHOULD envy, that is what LEADS ME TO a closer understanding, the DESIRE to be more like Jesus, that certainly isn't a SIN, of such a nature as to condemn one to eternal seperation from God. This one is just plain wrong.

5: Obstinacy in sin. Pretty close on this one. But, from a Catholic perspective ALONE, this can be disproven. If one were NOT "obstinate" in sin, one would see the light, confess, get absolution, and never need confession again. Right? It is the persistance of SIN, repeated falling back into the same sin, that marks us as human, "All are sinners, ALL, not even one is righteous" to paraphrase Paul, ALL, including the Pope, ALL. This is the NORMAL nature of Christians, Catholic Church and Protestant, to sin, it is NOT the eternal sin of damnation sorry again.

6:Final impenitence. If this is meant REJECTION of God, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit one's entire life, YES, bingo, that is what it means. The HS is the agent, left here on earth, the person who enters upon being "Born Again" [to use our term for this event of acceptance] that begins the transformation process. If one does NOT allow the HS in, rejects Him, then the change, and acceptance of God does NOT occur, that is why it is the ONLY sin that is eternal in nature, it is the total rejection, over an entire life, of the means of salvation.

Comments?

[cmotherofpirl]

So you think despair is normal for christians?

Presumption is people assuming whatever sin they commit they are covered.

Impuning a known truth is denying the existance of God or the Church.

Envy of spiritual goods, is being envious that someone is holier or has recieved gifts from God.

Obstinacy is another easy one: continously choosing sin over God.

You got the last one right.

Why are these so hard or is it because they are catholic?

[beng]

Bruce S

Oh bull beng!

I thought you are the one who actively promote lies and disobeying scripture?

Carry on.

Let me tear these all apart, one by one:

Lets

1: despair, look in the bible, see how many of God's men had despair in thier hearts ... deep despair, I could list page after page about despair being NORMAL for God's people, in fact, the ENTIRE NATION of Israel experienced despair, and has,  so despair is NOT a sin against God, never has been, in fact God expects despair, and offers his hand to us against it.

No no.

It's a different kind of despair. It's a despair that one can not be save. That one is into damnation.

At this point, the person is so in despair that even he doesn't believe (until his dying day) that Christ could save.

2: Presumption is a totally Catholic invention, it justifies purgatory, and the sacramental system of salvation invented by the Catholic Church to perpetuate power in the Catholic Church. It goes against EVERYTHING that Paul taught us, this one is NOT a sin against the HS, read your bible, find where, PRESUMPTION is denied by Paul or Jesus, don't go quoting commentary by Catholic or Greek THEOLOGIANS on it, it is flat out a denial of the GIFT of salvation. Presumption being THE ETERNAL SIN my bottom.

Again, you got it wrong.

This is when a person is so arogant (presumptous, spelling) that he think God will always have mercy in spite of anything that he would do. He doesn't have any remorse, he would just continue doing evil and be sure, without remorse, that God is so benovalent that he would be spare.

And, I'll leave the discussion about Purgatory and Sacrament. All is biblical and there are verses. But it's beside the point. I'm trying to explain the sins here.

3: Impugning the known truth. Another Catholic invention. You can deny Jesus, blaspheme HIM and you are allowed to, HE even said so himself, go read the bible again, that statement is odd, but Jesus said it, so it is so, and HE is certainly the ultimate known truth, "I am the TRUTH, the light and the way" comes immediately to mind. If you can call Jesus a name, deny him, and STILL [at that point in time, as I understand it] still be OK ... how is TRUTH defined? No one knows all the truth, we have glimmers of truth,  some truth is accepted by all, other parts of it are not. So, this statement is disproven.

You have to think extreme.

Yes, some people do challenge Christ. But what this sin mean is for those people who actually know that Christ is the truth but keep challanging for one reason or another.

For example, Christ raise you from the dead (only God, or people with God given power, could raise the dead. Since only He control the gates of hell). But you keep chalanging Him by saying that, it's a trick etc etc. You will be damned.

The key here is that the person has full knowledge.

What about you Bruce? Here, you've been given knowledge how the Catholic Church really is. But you continue to deny it with lies. Even I have given you scripture reference but you're still stubborn.

So it's not that you CAN'T admit the truth within Catholicism, but you DON'T want to admit the truth within Catholicism. (again, even after proven convincingly [of course you'd say you're not convince, but this would be consistence with the fact that you DON'T wanna admit]).

And your attitude of Anti Catholicism is very dangerous. Even majority Christian thinks that Catholic at least share the truth (we think we have the Full Truth). Only denominations out of Calvinism branch that usually has strong anti-Catholic sentiment (Baptist). CAtholic on the other hand acknowledge other Protestant brethren and think we're seperated.

I suggest for you to have an open mind.

4:Envy at another's spiritual good. Huh? Everyone ENVIES others spiritual good. Even Catholics, should look up to, and envy the Saints, the Mother of God, the Pope, and by their ENVY, aspire to be more like them. Duh. This statement is utter nonsense. I can envy all I want, and SHOULD envy, that is what LEADS ME TO a closer understanding, the DESIRE to be more like Jesus, that certainly isn't a SIN, of such a nature as to condemn one to eternal seperation from God. This one is just plain wrong.

It's envy at the point of saying that God's not fair. *I* should have more than him. *I* am more righteous than him (the one who has more spirituality). This is the attitude of Pharisee that Christ condemned.

5: Obstinacy in sin. Pretty close on this one. But, from a Catholic perspective ALONE, this can be disproven. If one were NOT "obstinate" in sin, one would see the light,  confess, get absolution, and never need confession again. Right? It is the persistance of SIN, repeated falling back into the same sin, that marks us as human, "All are sinners, ALL, not even one is righteous" to paraphrase Paul, ALL, including the Pope, ALL. This is the NORMAL nature of Christians, Catholic Church and Protestant, to sin, it is NOT the eternal sin of damnation sorry again.

If we simply fall into sin. That would be understandable. Human is weak. But when we actually LIKE the sin and can't live without it then it's become obstinacy.

Remember, Christ said that no servant could serve two masters.

6:Final impenitence. If this is meant REJECTION of God, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit one's entire life, YES, bingo, that is what it means. The HS is the agent,  left here on earth, the person who enters upon being "Born Again" [to use our term for this event of acceptance] that begins the transformation process. If one does NOT allow the HS in, rejects Him, then the change, and acceptance of God does NOT occur, that is why it is the ONLY sin that is eternal in nature, it is the total rejection, over an entire life, of the means of salvation.

Comments?

Final impenitence would mean, even after death, the sinner don't see the need to repent. Infact he doesn't want to repent.

For example (I put it in the above) Timothy McVeigh.

Edited December 31, 2003 by beng

[beng]

My quotation doesn't work.

anyone could fix this?

EDIT:

Nevermind

Edited December 31, 2003 by beng

[Bruce S]

Impuning a known truth is denying the existance of God or the Church.

We agree then, it ties salvation to A church, not Jesus. Point made.

Envy of spiritual goods, is being envious that someone is holier or has recieved gifts from God.

That keeps you out of heaven? OK, name one person that doesn't envy the really "holy" everyone does that, everyone, one should, envy, AND DESIRE that added degree of holiness. That is GOOD, it spurs one on to a closer relationship with God and His Son, and the HS.

Why are these so hard or is it because they are catholic?

Edited December 31, 2003 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

What about you Bruce? Here, you've been given knowledge how the Catholic Church really is. But you continue to deny it with lies. Even I have given you scripture reference but you're still stubborn.

Yep. Happy heretic here, complete, utter, total, unremitting, absolute rejection of Rome in my salvation. You got me here.

I trust in God, Jesus, AND the Holy Spirit for my salvation, sorry, silly me, I guess I'm damned for that one....not.

Lies?

Perhaps from your perspective, I grant you that, if lies are the truth, and Rome has christmas treed the message with so much baggage [this is the Protetant view] over the centuries that the basic message is almost lost. Specifically, I point to the overemphasis on Mary and the Saints [again a Protestant interpretation] as evidence of this.

[jasJis]

The word PRESUMPTION to a Catholic means that one cannot obtain heaven without the sacraments, go read TRENT, it anathemises, or condemns anyone that PRESUMES that Jesus died and his death, and YOUR acceptance of Jesus alone, without the OTCHAWSI can lead to heaven.

Bruce,

When are you going to read all of Trent, and try to present Church teachings in context. Come on dude. You seem much more intelligent that undermining your own arguments with unfettered bias and myopia. Think QUALITY over Quantity.

We'll wait for ya... :popcorn:

[aquamarine]

I just wanted to say something about this 'envy' thing people seem to be getting stuck on, and please, if I get it wrong, let me know - this is all off the top of my head...

The 'envy' that is a sin that's being discussed here isn't the same as looking towards others as mentors or as role models and wanting to be the same as those people. It's more of a covetousness combined with loathing - envying someone to the degree that we hate them (or what they have) to the degree we must destroy them or their gifts, bring them down in some way, or resent the giver for giving those gifts to someone other than ourselves.

It's okay to look at anyone and say, "Wow! They're really on to something, and they've really been blessed by God with some very special abilities.", and be inspired, lifted up, encouraged and affirmed by that. It's not okay to look at someone else and say, "Hey! Why them and not me? What's up with that, God? What about me? And, BTW, that person is a <insert insult here>, so they don't even deserve it!" (whatever 'it' may be - a seemingly closer relationship with God, a true love of prayer, the gift of teaching and leading, etc.).

There's a very destructive type of envy out there that seeks to destroy others and ultimately destroys ourselves because we're so busy coveting what others have that we fail to see what we have and where God is working in our own lives.

[cmotherofpirl]

you are absolutely right aqua

And welcome to phatmass!

Edited December 31, 2003 by cmotherofpirl