No Tomatoes Please! For What I'm About To

[Muschi]

Greetings all-

It seems to me that many on this phorum do not like George Bush OR Rush Limbaugh. Why?

Rush speaks out against the "leftist" agenda which supports abortion and a host of other things we Catholics don't agree with, so why the anymosity against him? I also noticed a thread regarding George Bush as to whether he was Christian or not. Personally, I feel that he is the most honest President our country has seen for decades. So, he's not Catholic, but I sure don't hold that against him! He seems down to earth and genuine.

Anyone care to enlighten me to any views contrary to mine?

Note: I posted this on the debate forum because I anticipated the fact that this thread would probably get moved there anyway, but I'm not so stuck in my opinions that I wouldn't enjoy a good but mild debate on this topic since I am not "die-hard" stuck in my above opinions. However, they are the opinions I hold at this time unless someone can give me good SOLID FACTS why I should re-consider.

-What say you? - God bless! - Muschi

[Circle_Master]

amen to that muschi. i'm glad we agree on something :P

[foundsheep]

He still a politician. :lol:

[Kilroy the Ninja]

I like them both despite their personal issues. George seems to have beaten his (alcohol related). Pray for Rush.

[Paladin D]

I like both actually, and enjoy listening to Rush Limbaugh. Though I may not agree on every single thing they both say, many of the times I do. (Hey, I supported Bush during the 2000 elections :D )

[Matty_boy]

I don't know much about Rush, but that Geddy Lee really rocks. Oops, wrong Rush. Yeah. So. Conservative talk radio rocks 99% of the time. Bill O'Riley is way cool too because he doesnt back the president all the time, he backs the conservative values and even morality on some occasions.

Bush I'm really not a huge fan of. He's pushing to give amnesty to 12+ million illegal aliens, and wants to hook them up with jobs. Yeah, that will really help the 6% unemployment rate for us legal citizens. I'm 23, a junior in college, I live in Dallas, and I can't even get a job mowing lawns because all the illegals do it for much less pay. Some people say "they do all the jobs that nobody else would do." I'd have to disagree. I know many students that have and don't mind working as busboys, dishwashers, painters, construction workers, lawn mowers, etc. but can't because the job was given to someone who broke the law to come over to this country, and will do the job for way less than anyone else. Also, when Bush took $38 million from UNFPA, he put it right back into family planning resources here in the states. Planed Parenthood received over $200 million from the government last year and the year before and the year before that.....and Bush has the power to stop that, but he hasn't. Partial Birth Abortion was a good legal battle IF they continue trying to get more laws passed against abortion. On it's own it does nothing. Oh, and they have to make it stick too.

I DO like how bush gives tax breaks to small businesses that create more jobs. I'm majoring in Entrepreneurship and want to own my own someday, this will help me out a ton.

Saying that Bush is the most moral president in decades might be a little bit of a stretch. What about Reagan and Bush Sr.? Were they not good presidents? He's way better than the last 8 year plague, and that Carter guy that screwed up the economy, Johnson who threw fits all the time, JFK, Nixon, etc. Look who he's being compared to. Anyone can look good compared to those guys.

Two cents please :cyclops:

[Circle_Master]

I read a marvelous article on Bush recently, unfortunately I can't find it! Ah! So I'm sorry, but you'll just have to stick with a few tidbits I have.

Bush leads must different than presidents in the past. He leads by speaking of visions. To end terrorism, to increase morals, to punish evil. He doesn't plan all of it out, but his constitution is secure, and his close advisors are all extremely qualified and work with him and together to get things done. He is leading as a visionary, and I find it wonderful.

I especially thing it is cool when he quotes Isaiah about the starry skies, and other Scripture in his speeches. Go Bush!

[Matty_boy]

Talk is cheap, especially for politicians. Bush can talk all day, but it doesn't mean squat unless he does something about it. Also, he picked SUPER pro-choice Republican Tom Ridge for the homeland security advisor. Bush has also said that he does not intend to get rid of abortion. Poo on him!

[Circle_Master]

well, the senate did make partial-birth abortion illegal this year... and Bush's talk has gotten a LOT accomplished. more than I ever saw under clinton. I'm not sure what you are really talking about.

He said he would not tolerate terrorism - he has done a lot

He said he is for the morals of our country - church spending is increased

He said he is pro-life - getting one man for "homeland security" which has nothing to do with abortion who agree's with it really doesn't matter as long as he is the best qualified for the task

He also met terrorism head on and made a homeland security force revamping a severely outdated security system

Bush also attends church weekly and bible study weekly

[Circle_Master]

well except that his 'Spiritual advisor' he speaks with is a protestant ;)

[Paladin D]

I would understand that Matty_boy, but far up north, we don't get many people from Mexico (they prefer the warmer climates).

[-I---Love]

My two cents are that Rush's views are ALL PREDICATABLE...he is as far right as you can go on any issue - as far as I know. It's like no matter the issue the only thinking that will be done is how right he can go on the issue.

As for Bush I applaude the pro-life aspect - a BIG aspect

The war I don't - yet somehow I kinda think (which is dangerous for me to do) that his actions are a result of honest intentions to do good and bad advice from advisors.

CAUTION: Don't take anything I have written here seriously, since I am no politician - and I am NO JUDGE OF ANY MAN ... I am only judging their actions.

[foundsheep]

He's pushing to give amnesty to 12+ million illegal aliens, and wants to hook them up with jobs. Yeah, that will really help the 6% unemployment rate for us legal citizens. I'm 23, a junior in college, I live in Dallas, and I can't even get a job mowing lawns because all the illegals do it for much less pay. Some people say "they do all the jobs that nobody else would do." I'd have to disagree. I know many students that have and don't mind working as busboys, dishwashers, painters, construction workers, lawn mowers, etc. but can't because the job was given to someone who broke the law to come over to this country, and will do the job for way less than anyone else.

But america is willing to take thier Tax Dollars that theyll never recieve back. You say they get it back in Welfare and medical aide, The fact is, these human beings(illegal aliens is not very christian) pay almost triple into taxes than they use for these services. Not being able to get a job because of them is a stereotypical comment and a cop out. these people get these jobs because they will break thier backs and be loyal to thier employer. Please dont post anything like this again. I am a Proud Mexican American and I find it offensive.

[frozencell]

What I find so funny is that I made a poll involving these two people and hardly anyone swung their way, and everyone that posted said that they didn't liek either of these people! Where were you all at then?!

Anyhow, I like them both. Especially Rush! And props to Bill, too!!!!!

[frozencell]

But america is willing to take thier Tax Dollars that theyll never recieve back. You say they get it back in Welfare and medical aide, The fact is, these human beings(illegal aliens is not very christian) pay almost triple into taxes than they use for these services. Not being able to get a job because of them is a stereotypical comment and a cop out. these people get these jobs because they will break thier backs and be loyal to thier employer. Please dont post anything like this again. I am a Proud Mexican American and I find it offensive.

I'm not saying anything against any race, but we do have to look at the facts. "Illegal aliens" is not a derogatory term. It is what they are. If you aren't legally supposed to be in the country then you are illegal; an alien is the term used for anyone who comes to America from a foriegn country to live. It's the term used by everyone from Average Joe to Mr. Head Politician, but if you would prefer "illegal immigrants" we'll go with that instead.

And saying they take jobs is not a cop out, either. I have personally witnessed on several occasions in two states where Mexicans had the jobs because they were willing to settle for less than Americans. I worked at a restaraunt and the entire kitchen was staffed with Mexicans. Immigration came in one day and loaded them all up and deported them. In a matter of six months, they were all back again with their old jobs. You couldn't get hired as kitchen staff unless all you wanted to do was make salad or slice tomatoes. Another instance was a group of Mexicans being hired on someone's farm because they settled for half the pay and lived in a run-down trailer at the edge of their employer's property so that they wouldn't have to get Green cards or anything.

I'm not saying that every Mexican is like that, because I've met a lot of legals also. And I know that there is a lot of laziness in American society, and there are those people that just want everything handed to them without lifting a finger. But to say that it doesn't happen and that saying something like this is a cop-out is untrue.

Breaking their backs or not is not really the point. The point is are they supposed to be breaking their backs here in the first place?

[M.SIGGA]

I like their pro-life platforms, that's about it. I see Rush as a little bit racist and there isn't enough space for me to write out all my feelings about Dubya.

Bush has made my parents a whole lot richer and they love him more than their own children.

[foundsheep]

I'm not saying anything against any race, but we do have to look at the facts. "Illegal aliens" is not a derogatory term. It is what they are. If you aren't legally supposed to be in the country then you are illegal; an alien is the term used for anyone who comes to America from a foriegn country to live. It's the term used by everyone from Average Joe to Mr. Head Politician, but if you would prefer "illegal immigrants" we'll go with that instead.

And saying they take jobs is not a cop out, either. I have personally witnessed on several occasions in two states where Mexicans had the jobs because they were willing to settle for less than Americans. I worked at a restaraunt and the entire kitchen was staffed with Mexicans. Immigration came in one day and loaded them all up and deported them. In a matter of six months, they were all back again with their old jobs. You couldn't get hired as kitchen staff unless all you wanted to do was make salad or slice tomatoes. Another instance was a group of Mexicans being hired on someone's farm because they settled for half the pay and lived in a run-down trailer at the edge of their employer's property so that they wouldn't have to get Green cards or anything.

I'm not saying that every Mexican is like that, because I've met a lot of legals also. And I know that there is a lot of laziness in American society, and there are those people that just want everything handed to them without lifting a finger. But to say that it doesn't happen and that saying something like this is a cop-out is untrue.

Breaking their backs or not is not really the point. The point is are they supposed to be breaking their backs here in the first place?

Is this whole mentality Christian? They are illegal to the Government. But should they be to you?

[PedroX]

How is it taking jobs, when there are few to no americans who want those jobs in the first place. I am a social worker, and have spent countless hours trying to help folks find work. There are many, many people who have an inflated idea of their job worthiness. If an undocumented immigrant wants a job at $5/hr and an American citizen refuses to work for less than $8/hr. Guess who gets the job. Of course, this leads into the whole livable wage can of worms, but I don't understand your arguement. Most conservatives I talk to believe firmly in market forces. In this case, the employment market dictates that undocumented workers can find work more quickly than others because of the kind of work and the pay they are willing to take. If I'm wrong, please explain because I am genuinely confused by this.

peace...

[Circle_Master]

try romans 13:1-5..

[Matty_boy]

First off, thank you frozencell for the backup.

I don't quite understand where people get the idea that all of these jobs that the "illegal immigrants" take are so unwanted by the American citizens. Sure, the senators might not want them, upper middle class America might not want them, but I sure want them, and I'm sure there is no shortage of legal US citizens who would want them. Not everyone has the chance to go to college and not everyone that does goes. I go to school in a town in Kansas that is one of the poorest in the country. Many of the adults haven't even finished highschool. What kind of jobs do they work? Manual labor. Miners, factory workers, refinery workers, etc. These are the "jobs that nobody wants", but they are the jobs that many people need to make a living.

Also, I've never gone into a job interview saying how much money I need to make. I have never refused $5/hour for anything. I usually take what the employer offers and prove to them that I am worth more. I'm very curious as to how many people have actually refuse to work for less than $8/hour. How many people have you met PEDROX that have been in need of a job that refused because the pay wasn't the best? I wouldn't mind working for the same wage, I'd just like to be working. I'm not the one who set the "standard" of pay for "illegal immigrants" and US citizens, and I hate that people are so greedy that they'll pay the lowest bidder who shouldn't even be in the country instead of paying what is worth the labor, which brings me to another point. I've worked for a couple of painting and construction companies which is very "back breaking" work, and I wouldn't call the 30 or so "illegal immigrants" I worked with "loyal" by any means. I'm not saying all illegals are disloyal, but they came into this country in a dishonest fashion. Why are they here? To make an honest living? It doesn't make sense.

Furthermore, the government has a system set up of allowing people to immigrate or come into the country which is especially important now for national security. It's not an unjust law to have to follow to enter our country. If we just let everyone come and go without keeping records of who is coming in and out, anyone could come in and do whatever they wanted, thus making the terrorist watch list obsolete. Heck, why don't we just get rid of airport security and police and even the military? ANARCHY IN THE USA!!!

And finally, Bush is way better than Clinton, and I like that he dislikes the UN. Clinton was very pro-death and even tried to make it illegal to sidewalk counsel in front of abortion centers. And he got re-elected!!! That scares me. I think it's good for the world's security and for morale that Sadaam is captured, but what ever happened to the chemical weapons? Even Donald Rumsfeld is questioning the validity of the invasion into Iraq. I support the troops very much, but I don't know that this war was the right thing for the right reasons. I have a lot of doubts about if the war wasn't something for Bush to prove to the world that he was tougher than they thought, especially after the "I will go to war with or without the UN." I hate the UN too, but his reasons for going to war seem kinda shady in retrospect.