Question on new translation of the Mass

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='phatcatholic' post='1016756' date='Jul 3 2006, 03:44 PM']
did u get the newsletter?
[/quote]


Grrr...I forgot it. If I remember I'll drop by the office tomorrow and pick it up.

[Ziggamafu]

You know, I heard that the Creed was getting revised (seriously) - only the part saying, "for us men and for our salvation" was supposed to be changed (ommitting "men"). Maybe it was just a motion that didn't pass, I don't know. But if I remember correctly, I heard this from a conservative source. Know anything about that? Is it part of these changes?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1017008' date='Jul 4 2006, 06:01 AM']
You know, I heard that the Creed was getting revised (seriously) - only the part saying, "for us men and for our salvation" was supposed to be changed (ommitting "men"). Maybe it was just a motion that didn't pass, I don't know. But if I remember correctly, I heard this from a conservative source. Know anything about that? Is it part of these changes?
[/quote]

That is not accurate. The Creed is being revised as well, but that particular phrase is staying.

The Latin version:

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipoténtem, factórem cæli et terræ, visibílium ómnium et invisibílium. Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum, Fílium Dei unigénitum. Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula. Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero. Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri: per quem ómnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem descéndit de cælis et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine: Et homo factus est. Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis: sub Póntio Piláto passus, et sepúltus est. Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras. Et ascéndit in cælum: sedet ad déxteram Patris. Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória judicáre vivos et mórtuos: cujus regni non erit finis. Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem: qui ex Patre Filióque procédit. Qui cum Patre, et Fílio simul adorátur, et conglorifícatur: qui locútus est per Prophétas. Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam. Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum. Et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.

The proposed changes would look something similar to this, although it may differ slightly:

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father. By Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And He became flesh by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary: and was made man. He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. And of His kingdom there will be no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and Son is adored and glorified; and Who spoke through the Prophets. And one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. And I await the resurrection of the dead. And the life of the world to come. Amen.

This is the version used today at Mass:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty
Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
And his kingdom will have no end
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
Who proceeds from the Father (and the Son)
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The substance of the Creed is not changing, which is what you are questioning, only the translation. It is an attempt to be more faithful to the Latin.

The second major change that one will be seeing is in the Gloria.

The Latin:

Gloria in excelsis Deo,
et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
Laudamus te,
Benedicimus te,
Adoramus te,
Glorificamus te,
Gratias agimus tibi propter magnam gloriam tuam,
Domine Deus, Rex caelestis, Deus Pater omnipotens.
Domine fili unigenite, Jesu Christe,
Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, Filius patris,
Qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Qui tollis peccata mundi, suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris, miserere nobis.
Quoniam tu solus sanctus,
Tu solus Dominus,
Tu solus Altissimus, Jesu Christe,
Cum Sancto Spiritu in gloria Dei Patris. Amen.

And the probable revised (rather reverted) translation:

Glory to God on high.
And on earth peace to men of good will.
We praise You.
We bless You.
We adore You.
We glorify You
We give You thanks for Your great Glory.
O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father almighty.
O Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son.
Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father.
You take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
You take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer.
Enthroned at the Father's right hand, have mercy on us.
For You alone are Holy One.
You alone are the Lord.
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ.
With the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.

The reason that I say reverted, is that this is similiar to the version that was used during the "Transitional Mass" in the 1960's. Notice though the accuracy that will be employed.

The current version is:

Glory to God in the Highest
And peace to His people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, Almighty God and Father;
We worship you, we give you thanks,
We praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, Only Son of the Father.
Lord God, Lamb of God
You take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us;
You are seated at the right hand of the Father, receive our prayer.
For You alone are the Holy One,
You alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High Jesus Christ,
With the Holy Spirit in the Glory of God the Father. Amen.

The version that we use now is a paraphrase and a bad one at that. Go figure.....ICEL.....YUCK!!!!

These are by no means final drafts nor should they be seen as such. They are simply more faithful translations of the Latin and my friend who sent this to me says that this is not too far off the mark, however, there will enivitably be some changes to the translations. It would be foolish not to think so, so please don't assume that this will be the final or that these are in any way authoritative, they are simply some of the first renditions of what is being proposed.

BTW, this will move quickly....I foresee the changes by either this Advent or next.

[phatcatholic]

ya know what, i'm starting to think that the ICEL participated in a grave sin by translating the mass the way they did. look at all the catholics they mislead FOR YEARS. now we have to learn these prayers all over again, prayers that we have been praying incorrectly this whole time. its a good thing our Lord knows the hearts of man.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

yeah, it's very sad (as is the super abundance of Eucharistic Prayers that ICEL put forth as well.. they are often abused).

on the one hand, this is a good argument for using the Latin responses. but on the other hand, this is further evidence of "cleaning house" and the more focused direction of the Church (i.e., the Holy Spirit guiding and leading the Church, keeping her from the gates of Hell)

[Resurrexi]

Is the Domine, non sum dignus going to be said three times in the new translation, or is the ICEL going to keep it the current unpoetical one time?

[kateri05]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1017014' date='Jul 4 2006, 04:49 AM']
of one substance with the Father. [/quote]

i know this is what the changes were supposed to be as given, but all of the articles i read said that teh USCCB had rejected this particular part, and were staying with "one in being with the Father"

can anyone confirm or deny?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I have also read that that particular change had been rejected.

[dspen2005]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1018252' date='Jul 6 2006, 11:48 AM']
Is the Domine, non sum dignus going to be said three times in the new translation, or is the ICEL going to keep it the current unpoetical one time?
[/quote]

why say it three times?

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1018293' date='Jul 6 2006, 12:39 PM']
i know this is what the changes were supposed to be as given, but all of the articles i read said that teh USCCB had rejected this particular part, and were staying with "one in being with the Father"

can anyone confirm or deny?
[/quote]

I can confirm that


[quote]hey, can you post that list of adaptations that you mentioned?[/quote]
Someone absconded with the newletter before I could I'll try to get those to you when it is returned.

Edited July 6, 2006 by p0lar_bear

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='dspen2005' post='1018413' date='Jul 6 2006, 04:10 PM']
why say it three times?
[/quote]
Because, in keeping with a closer translation of the Latin it would be said 3 times. For emphasis.

It is repeated 3 times in the Tridentine Liturgy.

[Resurrexi]

As Fides et Ratio said, saying the Domine, non sum dignus thrice is traditional, and it emphasizes our unworthiness to recieve our God and Lord Jesus Christ Son of God.