Anastasia13 Posted June 26, 2006 Posted June 26, 2006 [quote name='thessalonian' post='1012585' date='Jun 26 2006, 01:38 PM']It is certainly a more serious and concerning matter for one who has it explained to them and they reject it so our prayers go out to you. [/quote] But there is still purgatory for them either way, no? <- doesn't believe in purgatory.
thessalonian Posted June 26, 2006 Posted June 26, 2006 [quote]But there is still purgatory for them either way, no?[/quote] One who has recieved the grace to convert but does not is not eligible for purgatory. Sorry. By the way, I simply don't understand this objection to some final cleansing before heaven. (purgatory). Do you believe that you have no sin or no tendancy toward sin this day? Do you believe in imputed righteousness? If you believe either of these things then you have to believe there is some sort of cleansing at or after death becuase you cannot have any taint of imperfection when you enter heaven and you do up to your final moments on this earth. When I have pressed many protestants on this issue they either ignore it or eventually many of them have owned up to it. You do believe in sanctification don't you? Well let's say Billy Graham is on a bus. A man living a very sinful life sits down with him. The man is on drugs, has a live in girlfriend, on alcohol, steals to make a living and has encouraged his girfriend in to several abortions. Well Billy converts him. But when the man goes home he would still have tendancies toward alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. that are habitual for him and that he must overcome. Well instead the bus goes off a cliff and both die. Now tell me how that man can take his habbits in to heaven with him? How does he get rid of them? His mind still is wired for those tendancies. Billy on the other hand is a faithful, married man. He is much more ready for heaven. Can't say whether he is perfected or not. But certainly something has to happen at a different level to purify him than the other man? If none of this is true than the process of sanctification to you must be unneccessary and of no eternal value. Help me understand how it could be otherwise.
Franimus Posted June 26, 2006 Posted June 26, 2006 Great posts, Cam and thessalonian. Since I previously had no clue there was a difference between "formal" and "material" heretics, I'm going with Cam's provided definition, and thus yes, Protestants are material heretics.
Era Might Posted June 26, 2006 Posted June 26, 2006 [quote name='Light and Truth' post='1012582' date='Jun 26 2006, 04:34 PM']So if you have a Protestant who studies Catholic teachings but remains a Protestant, does that person ever become culpable? At what point does that happen? [/quote] I agree with Thess, that's something for God to judge. When someone genuinely tries to serve Christ, I respect their integrity, and don't assume that they are obstinately opposing the Truth. They just haven't come the point in their journey where others have.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 27, 2006 Posted June 27, 2006 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1012377' date='Jun 26 2006, 08:16 AM'] its possible.... its possible for catholics to be formal heretics as well. [/quote] yup. to answer Light and Truth: a Protestant studying Catholic Teaching, yet remaing a protestant, would be much more culpable than a protestant who never met a Catholic, or who never had true knowledge of the Catholic Church. it is for God to decide. the Dogma is "No Salvation Outside the Church". [b]Souls that are not visibly part of the Church, but are saved by Ignorance Or BOB, or BOD, are the exception to this rule, so to speak, not the rule itself. [/b]
son_of_angels Posted June 27, 2006 Posted June 27, 2006 I might note that all Protestant denominations and independents are not particularly "sola fide" nor "sola scriptura" and most are neither in actual practice. Protestant could also define the simple heresy of refusing to submit to the magisterial authority and communion of the church, and having sprung historically from one of those denominations of the Reformation/Anabaptist era.
Anastasia13 Posted June 28, 2006 Posted June 28, 2006 [quote name='thessalonian' post='1012618' date='Jun 26 2006, 02:25 PM'] One who has recieved the grace to convert but does not is not eligible for purgatory. Sorry. By the way, I simply don't understand this objection to some final cleansing before heaven. (purgatory). Do you believe that you have no sin or no tendancy toward sin this day? Do you believe in imputed righteousness? If you believe either of these things then you have to believe there is some sort of cleansing at or after death becuase you cannot have any taint of imperfection when you enter heaven and you do up to your final moments on this earth. When I have pressed many protestants on this issue they either ignore it or eventually many of them have owned up to it. You do believe in sanctification don't you? Well let's say Billy Graham is on a bus. A man living a very sinful life sits down with him. The man is on drugs, has a live in girlfriend, on alcohol, steals to make a living and has encouraged his girfriend in to several abortions. Well Billy converts him. But when the man goes home he would still have tendancies toward alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. that are habitual for him and that he must overcome. Well instead the bus goes off a cliff and both die. Now tell me how that man can take his habbits in to heaven with him? How does he get rid of them? His mind still is wired for those tendancies. Billy on the other hand is a faithful, married man. He is much more ready for heaven. Can't say whether he is perfected or not. But certainly something has to happen at a different level to purify him than the other man? If none of this is true than the process of sanctification to you must be unneccessary and of no eternal value. Help me understand how it could be otherwise. [/quote] Are we not resurected in new, glorified bodies at judgment, at which time our fate will be decided?
Budge Posted June 28, 2006 Posted June 28, 2006 I guess the fact that more Prots are becoming proto-Catholics--Emergent church movement etc... complicates this one. I dont mind that Rome consider me a heretic. {I know I am by all rules especially being an EX-CATHOLIC, Im not put in the seperated brethern camp} Thats ok, where I am with God is what matters.
thessalonian Posted June 28, 2006 Posted June 28, 2006 [quote name='Light and Truth' post='1013712' date='Jun 28 2006, 07:16 AM'] Are we not resurected in new, glorified bodies at judgment, at which time our fate will be decided? [/quote] The resurrection of the body does not occur until the second coming. At the end of our life we undergo judgement however. That is pretty standard protestant as well as Catholic doctrine. Please deal with the issue at hand. How can an imputed righteous person go directly to heaven? What is the purpose of sanctification or is it really uneccessary with regard to eternity?
Jesuspaidtheprice Posted June 28, 2006 Posted June 28, 2006 I imagine that, if examined by God, Father Son and Holy Spirit, all of us would find that we believe in something that is incorrect concerning doctrine. This incorrect belief, in whatever area of doctrine it may be, would be considered heretical.
thessalonian Posted June 28, 2006 Posted June 28, 2006 [quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' post='1013925' date='Jun 28 2006, 12:50 PM'] I imagine that, if examined by God, Father Son and Holy Spirit, all of us would find that we believe in something that is incorrect concerning doctrine. This incorrect belief, in whatever area of doctrine it may be, would be considered heretical. [/quote] "Those who worship God shall worship in spirit and IN TRUTH". "You shall KNOW THE TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free". They're in the Bible. Look em up. Now tell me, does it say "you shall know some of the truth or we shall worship in some of the truth? Don't think so. The truth, the fullness of the truth, is knowable. Truth saves.
Jesuspaidtheprice Posted June 28, 2006 Posted June 28, 2006 [quote name='thessalonian' post='1013984' date='Jun 28 2006, 02:54 PM'] "Those who worship God shall worship in spirit and IN TRUTH". "You shall KNOW THE TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free". They're in the Bible. Look em up. Now tell me, does it say "you shall know some of the truth or we shall worship in some of the truth? Don't think so. The truth, the fullness of the truth, is knowable. Truth saves. [/quote] To know the Gospel message, and to be knowledgable of all the truth that God is and has communicated to us without fault. You are also confusing two issues - that you think the Catholic Church is without error, and I believe the verse you are fishing for is in John 13, and whether or not each man knows all truth without error. Happy hunting.
thessalonian Posted June 28, 2006 Posted June 28, 2006 No, the passages do not say that God communicated the truth to us without error, though he did. They indicate that we can know the truth. Paul later tells of Christians who "know the truth". The truth is knowable, but notIn the system of every man and his bible. Hunting for what. I am not the one who is fishing.
MichaelF Posted June 28, 2006 Posted June 28, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1013749' date='Jun 28 2006, 08:10 AM'] {I know I am by all rules especially being an EX-CATHOLIC, Im not put in the seperated brethern camp} [/quote] Actually, that would make you an apostate.
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