Moral culpability

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1016732' date='Jul 3 2006, 02:43 PM']
But is she guilty of "getting an abortion" or "wanting to get an abortion"?
[/quote]
She's guilty of choosing to have an abortion. Sins originate in the will.

Edited July 4, 2006 by Raphael

[frozencell]

I agree that she guilty of "getting an abortion" because sins reside in the state of the spirit. She had conditioned her spirit for going through with a sin (whether it happened or not) and had accepted this.

Two other interesting questions...

1. Is the doctor guilty of the sin of performing this abortion in particular or just theft? Is he a stumbling block like the ones referred to in Proverbs?

2. With the risk of getting this thread shut down, too, I raise the question of masturbation again. Hypothetically, someone desires to masturbate knowing they would enjoy the pleasurable physical feelings derived from the act, but they don't. Is it a sin becuase this person wants to or are they still not sinning because they didn't?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='frozencell' post='1016947' date='Jul 3 2006, 10:54 PM']
I agree that she guilty of "getting an abortion" because sins reside in the state of the spirit. She had conditioned her spirit for going through with a sin (whether it happened or not) and had accepted this.

Two other interesting questions...

1. Is the doctor guilty of the sin of performing this abortion in particular or just theft? Is he a stumbling block like the ones referred to in Proverbs?

2. With the risk of getting this thread shut down, too, I raise the question of masturbation again. Hypothetically, someone desires to masturbate knowing they would enjoy the pleasurable physical feelings derived from the act, but they don't. Is it a sin becuase this person wants to or are they still not sinning because they didn't?
[/quote]
1. The doctor also willed to commit abortion. He would be guilty of the same.

2. There is a difference between having a desire to sin and sinning. Now, I'm no moral theologian, but I don't think the first is a sin, but a temptation. Of course, if you are willingly and knowingly fostering that desire (even if you know ultimately that you will not act on it), then I think you're guilty of a sin, too. In the case of masturbation, if you know it's evil and don't will to do it, but still want to dwell on the chance to do it, consider it, etc., you're at least putting yourself in the occasion to sin, and at worst you're sinning by fostering that desire through thinking about it. We humans have a remarkable way of trying to get around sin: "well, I wasn't lusting, I was thinking about lusting; I was just considering it and what it would entail." Such is lusting, because it is willingly and knowingly fostering the desire to lust. In any scenario, it doesn't say much for our love of God.

Of course, it's sometimes hard to tell if you're willingly and knowingly fostering a desire. That's why you need to fight it when you recognize it, rather than let your mind dwell on it. I've been upset with people before and fought it and even if I was still emotionally angry, I could say that I didn't sin because I didn't will to be angry...but there are times when I've just wanted to be angry with someone because it felt good. Fostering that would be trouble.

Edited July 4, 2006 by Raphael

[rkwright]

When I first read this I was pretty much 100% with Soj and some of the others.... but now I have one more question. Lets say the female goes in, decides to have the abortion, they make arrangments for tomorrow for the procedure, then she changes her mind over night... still a sin? I'm inclined to say no; it was a tough battle with the devil but in the end her good conscience won out..I think Raphel somewhat pointed to this in his post, thoughts?

Edited July 5, 2006 by rkwright

[pyranima]

I am not well versed in moral Theology as i was an Atheist for a long time and prefered Moral Philosophy (but Moral Philosophy and Theology seem to have a lot in common) but i will take a crack at this one. Morally she is guilty of an abortion because it was her intent to carry one out, it does not matter if she actually did or not. its the old question of 'would you have killed him anyway' the answer is yes.

Theologically (and this is from someone who is just starting to study the subject) from what i can tell the act you commit is of very little importance. yes there is a difference between venial and mortal sins, but one mortal sin is not worse than another (i am currently debating on the Venial sin so i wont go that far as different venial sins or different amounts of venial sins may earn you more time in purgatory). it is not so much the physical act that is the sin, though it does have physical consequences. "he who is angry with his brother has already murdered him in his heart", Sin is an offense against charity. i believe that it is safe to say that abortion and intent to have an abortion both are an offense against Charity.

[homeschoolmom]

I agree that if she intended to have the abortion, but none was performed, she still guilty of willing for it.

I find it odd then, that in our justice system, the same standard does not apply. If I put poison in Sojourner's coffee with the intent to kill her, but instead I only make her really, really sick (btw, how you feeling today, Abby?) I would only be charged with attempted murder rather than murder. If the criminal fails to commit the crime (by their own stupidity or incompitence), they are charged with a lesser crime....

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1017381' date='Jul 5 2006, 09:02 AM']
I agree that if she intended to have the abortion, but none was performed, she still guilty of willing for it.

I find it odd then, that in our justice system, the same standard does not apply. If I put poison in Sojourner's coffee with the intent to kill her, but instead I only make her really, really sick (btw, how you feeling today, Abby?) I would only be charged with attempted murder rather than murder. If the criminal fails to commit the crime (by their own stupidity or incompitence), they are charged with a lesser crime....
[/quote]

I'm feeling fine ....



Another interesting tidbit about intent in our criminal justice system ... in many states, if someone dies during the commission of a felony, the offender can be charged with murder, even if that was not their original intent. For example, we had a situation a few years ago in which a prominent older lawyer was kidnapped and held for ransom. During the course of the kidnapping, he had a heart attack and died. Even though the kidnapper never intended to kill him, the kidnapper was also charged with murder because of the death.

But you're right that attempted murder doesn't warrant the same punishment as the real thing. And that seems to make sense -- that if you aren't actually able to achieve the end goal (a good thing, in this case) that it's not as bad as if you had actually succeeded. So as a society, we don't weigh intent as heavily in judgment of culpability, although it is an essential part of a conviction. But intent must be coupled with a completed action to warrant the most serious charges and sentence.

It reminds me of God's words to Samuel when Samuel was sent to annoint David king of Israel in the OT: But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

[scardella]

Umm... If she used a guy's urine for the pregnancy test... why would she get an abortion based on that?

[homeschoolmom]

Yes, Soj neglected to fill in the details (bad reporting dear). The investigation was about an abortion clinic that was performing non-abortions on women claiming they were pregnant when they weren't. They'd go in, take the test and everyone was given a posstive result and an abortion.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1017406' date='Jul 5 2006, 09:56 AM']
Yes, Soj neglected to fill in the details (bad reporting dear). The investigation was about an abortion clinic that was performing non-abortions on women claiming they were pregnant when they weren't. They'd go in, take the test and everyone was given a posstive result and an abortion.
[/quote]
Reason number 1 why it's a very good thing for me to have an editor.

[homeschoolmom]

I just realized that mine was badly written as well. The women went into the clinic thinking they may be pregnent. They were given a test and, whether they were pregnant or not, they were told that they were. All of the women were given an abortion, even those who weren't pregnant.

[Franimus]

I think the justice system has something somewhat right in putting weight on intent, but not equal weight. I would say that the woman who schedules an abortion but does not follow through is still guilty to some degree, but is not completely guilty because she repented before the act was committed. A movie line from that Tom Cruise movie about the future-predictions comes to mind "You still have the choice!" - he chose not to pull the trigger; the other guy killed himself (even though the other guy was killing himself all along...) I forget the name of the movie, but it definatly pertains to this discussion (especially the ending)