Too Much Emphasis Of The Virgin Mary?

[Damiano]

*["Your attitude is despicable..."]

***A subjective conclusion.


*["...You lack in the simplest graces and exhibit no true love for your brethren..."]

***You collectively are not my brethren.


*["...Btw, I was raised a Southern Baptist and was in the protestant faith for 30 years. I am probably more aware of what the Catholic Church actually says (hence my conversion)..."]

***There are millions of people who have affiliations with the protestant faith...many longer than you. The duration of your affiliation with that faith does not mean that you were ever redeemed by the Blood of Christ. So you came out that you might be made manifest that you were not of that faith...you are an apostate. You are an apostate because you left a conservative Bible-Believing group of Christians who preach the Gospel of Christ...to join a "christianized" pagan religion which denies that Jesus Christ is the ONLY redeemer and shares His glory with a co-redeemer who is the QUEEN OF HEAVEN!

Your claim that you allegedly are "more aware" of what the Catholic Church says CONFIRMS that you NEVER were saved to begin with...and do not have an "unction from the Holy One" or know all things [1 John 2:20]. The fact that you believe that Mary collaborated with Jesus Christ in the work of salvation is a DENIAL of His role as the ONLY Savior...and because of that DENIAL you WILL perish!


*["...than what you exhibit as an apostate from a Catholic family who was, obviously, poorly catechized...not to mention I also understand the protestant faith much more profoundly. When you have been protestant for 30 years, get back to me..."]

***N/A


*["...I also don't do this either, but I am stating publicly that I am putting you on ignore, so you don't have to waste time responding to me."]

***Ah gee whiz...here I wrote all this stuff and you tell me at the very end that you're placing me on ignore? That's cold!

Damiano

[HisChildForever]

So, what, are we all going to Hell? And put on a jacket if you're cold. Here, you can borrow mine, 'cause I suppose I won't need it where I'm going.

[HisChildForever]

You know what's interesting, your name is the name of a convent in Assisi. San Damiano.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Damiano' date='04 June 2010 - 04:34 AM' timestamp='1275647666' post='2123568']
You are mistaken. The Scriptures declare that Mary was a born sinner as is all of humanity and, as such, is not sinless: "...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [Romans 3:23]...[/quote]
Alas, the word translated as "all" (πᾶς) in the Greek of Romans 3:23 is richer in meaning that you admit in your post, because it can stand individually for everyone or it can stand collectively for some of all types, i.e., for many persons within a group.

Clearly it cannot be taken to mean every single man, because if that were the case it would include Christ, and we know that He is not sinful.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Damiano' date='09 June 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1276044029' post='2126013']
*["Your attitude is despicable..."]

***A subjective conclusion.
[/quote]
It's also very sad because it's lacking in the presence of Christ. I know Jesus got mad and sent people running from the temple but that would have been for some intelligent lesson. Your behavious is not the way I imagine Christ would behave towards those who disagreed with him.


[quote]*["...You lack in the simplest graces and exhibit no true love for your brethren..."]

***You collectively are not my brethren.

[/quote]
Then you are not of Christ. We are all children of God and brethren to each other. If you don't think we are your brethren then you are not a child of God, you are lost.


[quote] The fact that you believe that Mary collaborated with Jesus Christ in the work of salvation is a DENIAL of His role as the ONLY Savior...and because of that DENIAL you WILL perish!
[/quote]
That's not right. I'm an assistant to Christ in his role as saviour. 'Marie Therese' is also and so are all the true Christians of the world. I say true because many Catholics are not and many Protestants are not and many Muslims are not but some are even if they don't know it. But of course there are tiers of importance. Mary being at the top and people like me being a stone that supports the sole of the shoe of the body of Christ. Mary is the Queen of heaven because God made her specifically for the purpose of her role as Mother of Jesus. If you can't see that you're blind.



[quote]***Ah gee whiz...here I wrote all this stuff and you tell me at the very end that you're placing me on ignore? That's cold!

Damiano
[/quote]

Aren't you lucky that Jesus won't put you on ignore, well not while you are still alive anyhow.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Tridenteen]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 June 2010 - 07:46 PM' timestamp='1276044393' post='2126016']
So, what, are we all going to Hell? And put on a jacket if you're cold. Here, you can borrow mine, 'cause I suppose I won't need it where I'm going.
[/quote]


JMJ
Hey, if we all go to hell, can we start a TLM community there? SInce all the protestant wack jobs tell us this, there will will be a lot of Stinking Papists there. WE call ourselves "Saint Florians"...

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Tridenteen' date='08 June 2010 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1276050856' post='2126107']
JMJ
Hey, if we all go to hell, can we start a TLM community there? SInce all the protestant wack jobs tell us this, there will will be a lot of Stinking Papists there. WE call ourselves "Saint Florians"...
[/quote]

[Tridenteen]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='08 June 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1276054966' post='2126178']
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif[/img]
[/quote]


JMJ
Building on that, we could probably get together a choir, I could babysit for that, and Mr.Ed could be my lawyer for pay.

[Luigi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 June 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1276044509' post='2126017']
You know what's interesting, your name is the name of a convent in Assisi. San Damiano.
[/quote]

HFC - Are you back from Italy? Or are you posting from over there?

[Drew-Memphis]

[quote name='Damiano' date='08 June 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1276044029' post='2126013']


*["...Btw, I was raised a Southern Baptist and was in the protestant faith for 30 years. I am probably more aware of what the Catholic Church actually says (hence my conversion)..."]

***There are millions of people who have affiliations with the protestant faith...many longer than you. The duration of your affiliation with that faith does not mean that you were ever redeemed by the Blood of Christ. So you came out that you might be made manifest that you were not of that faith...you are an apostate. You are an apostate because you left a conservative Bible-Believing group of Christians who preach the Gospel of Christ...to join a "christianized" pagan religion which denies that Jesus Christ is the ONLY redeemer and shares His glory with a co-redeemer who is the QUEEN OF HEAVEN!

Your claim that you allegedly are "more aware" of what the Catholic Church says CONFIRMS that you NEVER were saved to begin with...and do not have an "unction from the Holy One" or know all things [1 John 2:20]. The fact that you believe that Mary collaborated with Jesus Christ in the work of salvation is a DENIAL of His role as the ONLY Savior...and because of that DENIAL you WILL perish!



Damiano
[/quote]

Hey there Damiano, good buddy.

I was raised Southern Baptist as well. But that's beside the point, who are you to judge? Who are you to say someone wasn't "saved" to begin with? I thought Jesus did the saving, so how could POSSIBLY know who's getting into heaven and who's not? I think I might call you St. Peter from now on, since he holds the keys to heaven and all.

Peace be with you,
Drew

[Lil Red]

the quote tags are actually really easy to use.

[Mark of the Cross]

I might start a poll
Damiano doesn't respond to my posts because.
1/ I'm an idiot and not worth responding to, In which case Damiano is totally lacking in Christian charity and humility.
2/ Damiano only responds to insults because, Christian thinking or discussion confuses or doesn't interest him.
3/ Damiano can't respond to my points on his lack of logic because he lacks logic and can't respond to my points.
4/ All of the above.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Luigi' date='09 June 2010 - 12:13 AM' timestamp='1276056780' post='2126211']
HFC - Are you back from Italy? Or are you posting from over there?
[/quote]

Oh I'm back, I came home Thursday.

[Marie-Therese]

I am taking a break from PM, but I was convicted by Jesus last night during prayer, and so I wanted to come and say publicly that I apologize to Damiano for my previous post. If I want to exhibit Christ's love then I must do so to even those who despise me. (Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.)

As St. Paul said in 1 Corinthians (cited from the KJV):
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Damiano, we obviously do not agree, but I pray the grace and mercy of Jesus upon you. Pax Christi.

[Damiano]

*["No one has argued in this thread that Mary was not a recipient of grace; and so I am unclear as to why you have asserted this point against us when in fact all Catholics agree that Mary received grace from God, who alone is the source of grace."]

***You are telling an untruth. All Catholics do NOT agree that Mary received grace from God. Most believe that she was "full of grace" and free from the taint of original sin PRIOR to the birth of Jesus and not merely "highly favoured"---a difference of epic proportions. Too, since you and your church allege she is the "Mediatrix of all graces" and was "full of grace" (i.e., had no sin) she is, in your COLLECTIVE minds, the DISPENSER of these graces and NOT a RECIPIENT! Your Church has, in effect, elevated Mary to the state of DEITY by this pronouncement---for you yourself admitted in your previous post to me that God "alone is the source of grace." If she is "full of grace" and SINLESS---she does NOT need a Saviour and is DEITY herself which is BLASPHEMY!


*["...I am sure that you are aware of the fact that [i]Luke 1:28[/i] and [i]Ephesians 1:6[/i] use two different forms of the Greek word for "grace." In the case of the text from [i]Luke[/i] the word used is κεχαριτωμένη (perfect past participle), which conveys the meaning of an action completed fully in the past, but which continues in the present moment, and without any indication that it will end in the future; while in [i]Ephesians[/i] the word ἐχαρίτωσεν (indicative active aorist) is used, which conveys the sense of a past action regardless of its extent, progress, or duration...}

***Au Contrare. The word for "grace" is CHARIS (Gr., femine noun---Strongs No. G5485) and is taken from the rootword CHAIRO (Strongs No. G5463). GRACE indicates "favour" on the part of the GIVER (i.e., God), and "thanks" on the part of the RECEIVER (i.e., Read of Mary's thankfulness in Luke 1:46-55).

In Ephesians 1:6 we are told that the ultimate goal of God's election is that believer's will be "to the praise of His glorious grace." A similar expression of praise is also given after the description of the work of the Son in [Ephesians 1:12] and of the Spirit in [Ephesians 1:14]. "His glorous grace" (i.e., unmerited favor) had been "freely given" us. The words "freely given" translate the verb ECHARITOSEN from the noun "grace" (CHARIS). The verb form is used ONLY one other time in the NT [Luke 1:28] where Mary is said to be "highly favoured." [Ephesians 1:6a] literally might be rendered "to the praise of His glorious grace which He 'graced' to us." Since salvation is ALL of God's grace, Christians should praise Him for it...for that is why we are CHOSEN---to give Him praise.

"In the beloved" [Ephesians 1:6] stresses the manifestation of God's love to His Son [Colossians 1:13]. God the Father loves His Son...and believers being IN the Son, are also the OBJECT of God's LOVE. Conversely all those NOT in the Son are the object of His CONDEMNATION.


*["...Moreover, the Angel Gabriel in the Gospel pericope from [i]Luke[/i], instead of addressing Mary by her proper name, hails her as κεχαριτωμένη, thus using that word in a titular manner, which means that the word κεχαριτωμένη becomes a name for Mary, just as Πέτρος became a name for the Apostle Simon bar Jonah in the Gospel of [i]Matthew[/i] (see [i]Matthew 16:18[/i]). In the former case, Mary - by the word of the Angel - is addressed with the title "she who has been, and is, completely graced"; while in the latter case, Jesus calls the Apostle Simon by the name "Rock" after Simon affirms Christ's divine sonship as an act of revelation given to him (i.e., to Simon Peter) by the power of God the Father. Finally, as I am sure you are aware, this renaming of individuals is a fairly common practice in sacred scripture, where God (either directly or through an angel) gives a person a new name in order to indicate something important about his character and his place in the divine economy (e.g., [i]Genesis 32:24-32[/i])"]

***Pure Catholic "spin." The only ones who will be given a new name in the economy of God are the BELIEVERS--->those who are IN Christ Jesus. We will have our "new" names carved in stone at the appearance of our great GOD and SAVIOUR Jesus Christ.

Damiano

[Damiano]

*["...I apologize to Damiano for my previous post. If I want to exhibit Christ's love then I must do so to even those who despise me..."]

***You have nothing to apologize for...we just disagree on things. Too, I DON'T dispise you...but I do have concern for you as a human being whom God loves and wants to come to salvation through His beloved Son Jesus Christ.


*["...Damiano, we obviously do not agree, but I pray the grace and mercy of Jesus upon you..."]

***Thank you...but have no fear for I received Him as my Saviour and Lord on July 20, 1996: "He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own (i.e., the Jews), and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His NAME: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" [John 1:10-13].

Damiano

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='10 June 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1276137407' post='2126581']
so I wanted to come and say publicly that I apologize to Damiano for my previous post. If I want to exhibit Christ's love then I must do so to even those who despise me. (Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.)

[/quote]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. When discussing something which is the core of your existence it is quite normal and human to lose it once in a while. I think Jesus would appreciate your passion more than your loss of patience. These threads are on the debate table so there is nothing said about us having to be all cushy lovey dovey all the time. As Winchester said. "Brothers fight!"

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Damiano' date='10 June 2010 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1276141815' post='2126618']
***You are telling an untruth. All Catholics do NOT agree that Mary received grace from God. Most believe that she was "full of grace" and free from the taint of original sin PRIOR to the birth of Jesus and not merely "highly favoured"---a difference of epic proportions. Too, since you and your church allege she is the "Mediatrix of all graces" and was "full of grace" (i.e., had no sin) she is, in your COLLECTIVE minds, the DISPENSER of these graces and NOT a RECIPIENT! Your Church has, in effect, elevated Mary to the state of DEITY by this pronouncement---for you yourself admitted in your previous post to me that God "alone is the source of grace." If she is "full of grace" and SINLESS---she does NOT need a Saviour and is DEITY herself which is BLASPHEMY! [/quote]
Damiano,

First, there may very well be some Catholics who try to deify Mary (unfortunately), but they are in error to do so. The Church does not teach that she is deified in any way, nor does the Church teach that she should be worshipped - just the opposite in fact, since the Church declares that God alone is to be worshipped. Now, as the objection you note, yes, we believe that she was full of grace prior to the birth of Jesus, but we believe that she was full of grace because of the sacrifice Jesus would make. It was applied to her pre-emptively, which is possible for God because He is outside of time. As far as I understand it (and I admit I could be wrong), her being Mediatrix of all graces is because Jesus, who gives all grace, was born of Mary. Without her saying "yes" to God, the Incarnation, and thus the Crucifixion and Resurrection, wouldn't have happened. This does not at all mean that she isn't a recipient of grace. She has no grace of her own to give, but has grace from God. This does not deify her, it does not state that she doesn't need a Saviour, either, since we acknowledge that she was saved by God and not by her own power.

God bless.

[Damiano]

*["...The Church does not teach that she is deified in any way, nor does the Church teach that she should be worshipped - just the opposite in fact, since the Church declares that God alone is to be worshipped."]

***Again you distort the truth. Your church without any warrant whatever from Scripture technically divides worship into three kinds: (1) LATRIA...the supreme worship, given to God alone; (2) DULIA...a secondary kind of veneration given to saints and angels; and (3)...HYPERDULIA, a higher kind of veneration given to the Virgin Mary.

The theory, however, is useless in practice, for the average worshipper is not able to make the distinctions, nor does he even know that such distinctions exist. The subtleties of definition only confuse the issue, for who can balance his feelings so nicely as to give God...the Virgin and the saints their due proportion? This is particularly true in Roman Catholic countries such as Italy where my parents came from and where the people are illiterate and given over to all kinds of superstitions. I must insist that any religious worship...whether inward or outward, consisting of prayer, praise, and expressed by outward homage such as bowing, kneeling, or prostration, is properly termed WORSHIP and belongs to God alone.

The distinctions that your church makes between latria, dulia, and hyperdulia does enable her to maintain OFFICIALLY that she does not teach the "worship" of Mary. However, the lengths to which her apologists like you have gone in trying to distinquish between such devotions and actual worship is evidence that she feels uncomfortable about the lofty names given to Mary and about the actual results, and that she does not dare take responsibility for what goes on in her churches. And, subtleties aside, some Roman theologians acknowledge that they DO worship Mary.


*["...Now, as the objection you note, yes, we believe that she was full of grace prior to the birth of Jesus, but we believe that she was full of grace because of the sacrifice Jesus would make. It was applied to her pre-emptively, which is possible for God because He is outside of time..."]

***Again...you can believe anything you want...but just because you believe it does not make it true. NONE of your statements are supported by Scripture---NONE!!! Where in Scripture does it say that God applied it pre-emptively???...cite the chapter and verse. Your supposition that God would do such a thing because He is outside of time is fallacious and violates the Scriptures...and Scripture is the ONLY inspired record that we have pertaining to the things of God [2 Timothy 3:16]...everything else is speculation.


*["As far as I understand it (and I admit I could be wrong), her being Mediatrix of all graces is because Jesus, who gives all grace, was born of Mary. Without her saying "yes" to God, the Incarnation, and thus the Crucifixion and Resurrection, wouldn't have happened. This does not at all mean that she isn't a recipient of grace. She has no grace of her own to give, but has grace from God. This does not deify her, it does not state that she doesn't need a Saviour, either, since we acknowledge that she was saved by God and not by her own power."]

***Have you read ANY of my posts? Isn't any of this getting through to you? I can testify before God that His Word is true: "But if our gospel be HID, it is HID to them that are LOST: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the LIGHT of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them"[2 Corinthians 4:3-4]. You are a prime example of the veracity of God's Word...you are [mod] personal attack- MIKolbe[/mod]

Damiano

[HisChildForever]

Everyone needs a cupcake!