Short Sheeting The End Times

[Justified Saint]

I love how the Church Fathers are suddenly relevant when it comes to "proving" sectarian doctrines like the rapture.

Mention anything else like the clear witness of apostolic succession/authority, the eucharist, and justification then of course it's business as usual: "Oh no, they were pagans who corrupted the simple faith of the Bible! Heretics, all of them!"

Anyway, this Chuck guy is funny: "many opponents of the pre-tribulation rapture view have made [b]dogmatic assertions[/b] that this view was never taught before 1820 A.D."

Who makes it a matter of dogma the date of an "opponent's" view? This kind of linguistic confusion is to be expected for anyone trying to treat the rapture as if it were a matter of scholarly inquiry.

[Eutychus]

[quote]Who makes it a matter of dogma the date of an "opponent's" view? This kind of linguistic confusion is to be expected for anyone trying to treat the rapture as if it were a matter of scholarly inquiry. [/quote]

And that means what in English...please?

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040862' date='Aug 10 2006, 07:24 AM']
And that means what in English...please?
[/quote]



And this is supposedly a model of perfect English:

[quote]and a physical Israel sitting on the ground, for all the world to see, with Jerusalem as the capital city, not ruled by the papacy, make Augustine and his City of God nonsense, that vetted, verified, and began the Catholic Amillenial teachings look like the mistake it really was, and is?[/quote]

It's just painful reading that.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Eutychus,

How wonderful to see a Protestant cite an early church writer, you are to be commended! And one who lived some two hundred years [i]after[/i] the death of the last Apostle. Incredible!

May I share two much earlier writings?

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote in 110 A.D., "You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. Nor is it permitted without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate the agape; but whatever he approve, this too is pleasing to God, so that whatever is done will be secure and valid."

The above is the earliest use of the term "Catholic Church. It is especially interesting that it is a man of Antioch who first writes the term Catholic Church; for it was also at Antioch, as we know from the Acts of the Apostles (11:26), that the followers of Jesus were first called Christians.

Also from St. Ignatius in 110 A.D., "Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again. [b]They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.[/b]

St. Clement of Alexandria wrote in c. 202 A.D., "From what has been said, then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one; and in it are enrolled those who, in accord with a design are just. We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants, - or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord, - those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just."

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1019107' date='Jul 7 2006, 09:38 AM']
I'll short sheet an answer for you.

The Church teaches us how to live properly. If we do that, the end times (whenever that may be) will not be an issue.
[/quote]
that is the most killer response to anything I have read in a long time

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040268' date='Aug 9 2006, 02:04 PM']
Since many of us now believe we are seeing prophecy playing out right now over in the Middle East.
[/quote]

Christians have been predicting the end of the world and the second coming since shortly after Christ ascended into heaven. Using the 'signs-of-the-times' as a predicto-meter for the end of the world hasn't worked for 2000 years. We know that no one knows the hour but the Father and the hour will be unexpected. Playing with current events to predict the end of the world is, IMHO, like playing with numerology. It is a waste of time.

[Eutychus]

[quote]We know that no one knows the hour but the Father and the hour will be unexpected. [/quote]

I guess the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24 is torn out of your NAB?

And is Revelation stapled shut, never to be opened?

And Ezekiel is that guy that does weird things....so forget about HIM, right?

{ gotta love strumming along with the biblical illiterates....}

One question, give it a shot, ok?

WHY is Matthew 24 there, if not for our edification and warnings?

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046117' date='Aug 18 2006, 01:14 PM']
I guess the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24 is torn out of your NAB?

And is Revelation stapled shut, never to be opened?

And Ezekiel is that guy that does weird things....so forget about HIM, right?

{ gotta love strumming along with the biblical illiterates....}

One question, give it a shot, ok?

WHY is Matthew 24 there, if not for our edification and warnings?
[/quote]

Praise be to God that we are literate and have Bibles so readily avaliable.

I have a KJV and NIV.

How do you know you are reading the correct signs into Matthew 24?

Edited August 18, 2006 by Jesuspaidtheprice

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' post='1046122' date='Aug 18 2006, 12:19 PM']
How do you know you are reading the correct signs into Matthew 24?
[/quote]

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1047103' date='Aug 21 2006, 06:52 AM']

[/quote]


Because, silly! he has ripped 2 Peter and 1 Timothy out of his Bible...you know...the exhortations against personal interpretation of scripture and the BIBLICAL designation of the CHURCH as the 'pillar and foundation of truth'.

Like arguing with a stick, or trying to carry water in a mousepad.....

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046117' date='Aug 18 2006, 02:14 PM']
WHY is Matthew 24 there, if not for our edification and warnings?
[/quote]

One question about something Jesus said in Matthew 24 that has perplexed me.

Jesus says in v. 34 that the present generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Based on the text, He was referring to His audience in 33 AD. Was Jesus speaking non-literally, or is there someone still alive from 33 AD (aside from Jesus), or was Jesus wrong?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1049334' date='Aug 23 2006, 11:40 PM']One question about something Jesus said in Matthew 24 that has perplexed me.

Jesus says in v. 34 that the present generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Based on the text, He was referring to His audience in 33 AD. Was Jesus speaking non-literally, or is there someone still alive from 33 AD (aside from Jesus), or was Jesus wrong?[/quote]St. Thomas Aquinas, in the Summa Theologica, touches upon this topic in one of the questions [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/210604.htm"](link)[/url]:[quote]Our Lord said (Matthew 24:34): "I say to you that this generation shall not pass till all (these) things be done": which passage Chrysostom (Hom. lxxvii) explains as referring to "the generation of those that believe in Christ."[/quote]
Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary ([url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id42.html"]link[/url]) mentions St. John Chrysostom as well.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1049405' date='Aug 23 2006, 11:40 PM']
St. Thomas Aquinas, in the Summa Theologica, touches upon this topic in one of the questions [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/210604.htm"](link)[/url]:
Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary ([url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id42.html"]link[/url]) mentions St. John Chrysostom as well.
[/quote]

My apologies, I should have clarified that I wanted to hear Eutychus' response to my question.

[Cow of Shame]

Personally, I think this thread would be much better if it was titled, "Short Sheeting [i]During[/i] The End Times; A Guide to Practical Jokes and High Jinks of the Apocalypse"

[Franimus]

I've heard that that verse refers to all the [u]signs[/u] mentioned, not the second coming/end of the world itself.

[chris]

My grandmother believes this. The biggest problem with her view is that she likes to imagine Jesus playing favortism, by taking the true Christians first and then coming back for the others later.

[quote]Revelation 20 speaks of Satan being bound and Christ reigning with His saints for a thousand years (a millennium). Many Protestants understand this 1,000-year reign literally and believe that it will occur on earth in the future. They also cite 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and try to make an historical connection between something called the rapture when Christians are taken up and this millennium.

[b]Response:[/b] There are three basic interpretations regarding Revelation 20 and the millennium.” The Church has traditionally taught one commonly known as “amillennialism,” which means that the reign of God began with Christs death and resurrection and the “thousand years” is a figurative number to describe the reign of His Church (2 Pt. 3:8-10; Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 664, 668-682).
[/quote]

you can find the above article [url="http://cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=107"]here[/url]

My grandmother still believes this and at one time a long time ago both my parents believed in this. Now they are anglo-catholics. So it spurred me to a long study on it...

This understanding of the "last days" differs from that of those who believe in the Rapture. Catholics agree that there will definitely be an "end of time" and that history as we know it will one day be complete. But we also recognize that each of us will face the end of our time on earth, and that this should, in many ways, concern us more than the end of the world (see CCC 1007)

After seeing natural disasters in our country, and watching my grandma and grandpa clutching their bibles waiting to fade into thin air, I realized that the method of the Rapture (yes, even all three methods.) Fills dispensational Christians with a [b]false sense of security.[/b]

A why polish-brass-on-a-sinking-ship mentality. This is not called by God to be Christian-like because, this horror, fear, and paranoia spills over into their ministry and then they don't proclaim the Gospel of Jesus. They scare people into believeing in Jesus or the individual wont become raptured and thus [i]left behind[/i].( That statement has nothing to do with the novels written.)

The puzzling and sometimes shocking images of Revelation are interpreted in clever, bizarre, and often laughable ways. The mark of the beast (Rev. 13:16-18) is seen in bar codes, credit cards, computer chips and laser beams. Most Catholics who encounter such misinterpretations usually scratch their heads and steer clear of the biblical books that deal with apocalyptic themes, Daniel and Revelation. They are content to let their non-Catholic friends battle over these confusing matters.

There is an issues that has always stuck at me, even before I was Catholic and it was. Why would Christians take the secound coming of Christ and turn it into a [b]secound and third coming?[/b] This seems to make no sense.

[b]"The Rapture is a biblical and orthodox belief."[/b]

(This view has been told to me since I was 14.)

LaHaye declares, in Rapture Under Attack, that virtually all Christians who take the Bible literally expect to be raptured before the Lord comes in power to this earth. This would have been news to Christians both Catholic and Protestant living prior to the 18th century, since the concept of a pretribulation Rapture was unheard of prior to that time. Vague notions had been considered by the Puritan preachers Increase (1639-1723) and Cotton Mather (1663-1728), and the late 18th-century Baptist minister Morgan Edwards, but it was John Nelson Darby who solidified the belief in the 1830s and placed it into a larger theological framework

Edited August 25, 2006 by Convert4888

[Winchester]

Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell.
Morons think insults will win converts.

[Jaime]

Baa

[Cow of Shame]

Sheep are dumb

[Jaime]

[quote name='Cow of Shame' post='1050351' date='Aug 25 2006, 11:42 AM']
Sheep are dumb
[/quote]


I think someone is a little nervous that Jesus didn't mention cows going anywhere